DOTA 2

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Push strats don't have to consist of 5 heroes that can push. Three or even TWO heroes can be considered a push strat and VG showed earlier their Lich is scary, especially against an Enigma. It was a good ban. Ideally they would ban Razor/NP with their first two and then just get Morphling somewhere down the line. Those are really the only heroes that gave anyone trouble with VG.

Thought I think they needed to do something new against the push strat, everything tried in the tournament so far failed. Something like Undying Offlane or Earth Shaker/KOTL or Windranger mid for RTZ instead of Alch.
 

Hake_sl

shitlord
69
0
I would rather have leshrak, shadow shaman, chen, veno, enchantress, ... than a lich, if i wanted to push fast. let's agree to disagree
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Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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I would rather have leshrak, shadow shaman, chen, veno, enchantress, ... than a lich, if i wanted to push fast. let's agree to disagree
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Well they took SD who is even less useful for pushing than Lich and got EG to gg in 15mins, so you can see how your argument isn't really accurate. Obviously you can get 5 pushing heroes to push, but it's better to have 3-4pushers and a well rounded lineup that can take a 5vs5 than just 5pushers who will crumble once they reach the base, shit happens all the time. That's why they also pick stuff like Doom which is pretty bad at pushing other than the aura(and that's not great tbh), because he acts as a tank and wins you fights with Doom on the right target.

The other interesting choices are healers. Dazzle or Witch Doctor are great "pushing" heroes, even though they don't actually push for shit. They give you the sustain to keep pushing and chip at buildings for extended periods of time.

VG is more about a strong 5man strat that pushes than just a pure push strat. It's similar to the old EG "knight strat" where they'd have DK and Omniknight and a bunch of tanky or healing heroes to go with and would just bulldoze their way through the game from 10mins on. Which shows it's not a new strat either, shit's been around for a while but VG seems to have found the right heroes and the right way to play it to make it work consistently.
 

Hake_sl

shitlord
69
0
SD is actually a very good pusher, and it combo extremly well with leshrak, and is great against void... so much better than lich in every way for this strategy.
 

Penance

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
5,252
5,245
Well newbee was one of the teams I had pegged for top 3 but not vg. They fucking deserve it though. All this mamby pamby pussy not fighting shit made eg deserve to lose

Universe and qkojva or however you spell it should start there own team.
 

gmstbfla_sl

shitlord
141
0
Like Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. VG punches you in the mouth. They aren't going to let you sit around and farm for 30 minutes so you can get your quad core lineup online. EG should have recognized that and tried to avoid the punch or figured out a way to hit back harder.

Oh well. Always next year.
 

Sutekh

Blackwing Lair Raider
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106
Wow... That ESPN2 special was fucking legit. It felt like I was watching Sunday morning football.
 

Fight

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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They did a really nice job with the ESPN big stage. The difference in production/professionalism this year to last is night and day.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
Are VG really going to win the TI by just 5manning their way to victory ?

No Chen or Ench vs them for really strong lanes kinda surprised me, I'd think that shutting down a lane early, or even getting FB would be worth it and Chen especially is really strong vs Doom.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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Sure Chen can send back someone if they get doomed but that's the same as if they died, gold difference aside, they're now in the fountain and you're fighting 4vs5. Chen is a so so 5vs5 hero, he nukes like once and MAYBE he does good dmg with it, he uses his mek ulti and maybe he managed to have enough creeps to actually do anything useful with them, or maybe he has none cause it's been a long siege and you can't go get any in your unwarded jungle. I think that's the main issue, get wiped once and rebuilding your army takes forever, it won't have optimal creeps and you might not even be able to do it if you're losing so the hero becomes completely worthless. I guess sending back doomed people works fine in your base though.

Kotl is a good hero if you want to focus on defending your base. Just chain blast the creeps, combos well with setup ultimates, can have someone farm a lane while VG is 5manning and Recall them into the fight when it starts.

Or you can pick a better early 5man lineup that might not push as well but fight a lot better. While VG generally pick good heroes for combat, they favor heroes that can push too, so you should be able to pick 5 combat heroes that might edge them out. You don't want to rely too much on long ultis either. Sure Tide is a great 5vs5 hero but first once they farm bkb, and they farm bkb fast since they're pushing all the towers, you lose a lot of efficiency and if you fuck your ravage up or don't win the fight, then Tide is worthless.

It's the same with Brew, I feel a lot of people fell in the trap of picking Brew against them and yeah you might be able to fight them with Brew ulti, but half the time they just run away and come back 20secs later and now you have a pretty bad hero left. You probably want good sustain too so you can convert a good fight into a push right away, so Urn and Meka are a must, and Medallion for quick roshan is also highly useful. Don't build into lategame items, build an Aquila or a Vlad and a Drums and if possible even a Pipe can give you a large edge in 5vs5. Basically, play like you expect to win at 20mins.


I'd pick something like Bane/Mirana/Kotl trilane(mirana being the carry here), DK or Beastmaster mid and typical offlanes, Centaur/Dark Seer I think preferably, something like that. Trilane is obviously just a random idea it can be anything that fights well, could be a sand king+skeleton king+mirana lane or whatever you want really, you want a good amount of control and a semi carry like Mirana who can actually nuke assholes down and not one that needs farm to be useful. Arrow is also always a good thing to have if you get pushed in your base as it can easily win you fights. Windrunner could also be a pick there. Mid could be Bristleback instead(or can be offlane if you want), Razor's fine too, Void's fine too but you most likely want to rush an Agh and not do the "damage" build because you need to chrono every fight not every other fight and you want health to actually live, couple with another hero that can help your damage(Ogre Magi potentially best here but his results are iffy, AA can be good with Chilling touch and Ice Blast is guaranteed on chrono).

A hero that was vastly forgotten this tournament was Visage. You want to 5man early? Hero is a FUCKING BEAST in teamfights. At the very least he'll soak up Doom every single time and still contribute via Familiars anyway. They don't have Doom? Holy shit are they gonna get nuked. Get agh, collect tier 1 tower gold if they're not down by backdooring with gargoyles. Scout the rosh, scout the ganks, scout all the things. Want CC? Bitch here come 3 gargoyles dropping on your head, but wait, there's more, resummon and redrop them.

There's a ton of forgotten heroes that excel at that shit. Clockwerk. Naix. Tiny(even without wisp but can wisp too if you want). Just don't pick 3-4cores with meh lanes and start building Midas and lategame shit, cause you're getting rolled at 10mins, it's no suprise.
 

Hake_sl

shitlord
69
0
Long ulti heroes is probably the biggest mistake EG did. Doesnt matter if you chrono and kill 2 VG guys, they respawn 20 seconds later and your tower is down before chrono is even back off CD. And these 1 or 2 kills you did with chrono give you half the gold the ennemy team gets with the tower...

About Chen, i think send back can actually be super strong for a push strat, since supposedly your t1 are up so you can send back a damaged hero after a push and he can join back the continued push super quickly with just a tp.. so in ~5 seconds you regenerate one hero to full life and mana, or have him carry items back to team without any delay.
 

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness
<Gold Donor>
14,408
12,019
They did a really nice job with the ESPN big stage. The difference in production/professionalism this year to last is night and day.
Yeah I enjoyed the ESPN thing and them not trying to really force impossible to explain to a general audience gameplay stuff in there and focus more on the competition, teams, event as a whole, and $$$. I think it would have been nice to see the full team introduction videos for Newbee and VG (or maybe an abbreviated version) to to further the human interest piece, but they had very limited time to squeeze stuff in. Otherwise I'm glad ESPN didn't get in and try to ESPN it up a bunch.

The production value overall seems better this year but I still feel like something is missing. My memory is admittedly not the greatest about these things, but last year it felt like there were more floor interviews and venue footage overall. For me it provided a better sense of scale to the event and not being able to attend in person you still got to see a lot of the Secret Shop stuff, Artist's Row, Player's Lounge, etc... This year it is 1 match, 20 minutes of panel discussion, 1 match. With a 45 second winner interview in between. Just feels small or something, which is silly since you can see the huge crowd behind the panel, maybe removed is a better word.
 

Hake_sl

shitlord
69
0
-> they never film the audience, or when they do there is a stupid team VS team billboard in front
-> they don't film anything of what's happening outside (secret shop, cosplay... etc.)
-> they don't even have players cheering in front of the crowd when they win / players seem to flee the stage as soon as possible, even if they win!! they never celebrate! it's crazy.
-> casters are pretty bad at creating hype (where are you Ayesee)
-> no video shot of players while they play
-> when game is won, very rarely do we see shot of winning / losing team, we see them 20 seconds after...
-> during group stage it seems they had camera shooting players playing / winning / losing, but apparently we they didn't want to show it.. ? weird
-> for example no footage of Fnatic being eliminated, or Alliance, neither during or after... not a single interview? maybe i missed that.. idk
-> why aren't interview done on main stage where people can cheer ? it seems it's done in a corner far away... wtf
-> it seems they are basically trying to remove any emotion this tournament can create, this is probably what they think is "professionnal"...
 

Fight

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Haha fucking hilarious. They better be careful or they might piss off the nerd/reddit army.