Dragon Age: Inquisition (Plot Details in Spoilers!)

Again you're trying to position me as a defender of DA2. I'm not.

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You're trying to argue that DA 2 wasn't bad because of unfocused development and an overemphasis on the bullshit and style over the substance of the gameplay. Whether thats the argument you wanted to make when you started or not, that's the argument you've been making by trying to argue that I'm wrong that unfocused development and overemphasis on bullshit and style over the substance of the gameplay are exactly why the game was a giant honking pile of shit. It is what it is. You aren't offering a valid counter reason for WHY the game was a pile of shit. You're just saying "You're wrong because I said so and romance can't be part of the problem because it wasn't in previous titles"

You said that they made changes to DA2 that made it worse. One of those was romance stuff. This isn't plausible, since they both had them.

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The assertion that because Dragon Age 1 had romances, therefore Dragon Age 2 romances couldn't detract from the quality of the title, is baloney.

Of course it could. Why couldn't it? Because you say so?

Romances were one of the worst parts of DA1 too, one of my outright least favorite parts and one of the only complaints I have about the game outside of really just terrible models for the bodies (remember those shoulders holy shit was that bad) but they were easier to overlook because the rest of the game was decent and did so many other things right. Just because one had them and didn't suffer as badly has no bearing on whether or not they did on the quality of the sequel.

And the more times you cry strawman, the weaker your cries become. The only person strawmanning anyone here is you, with your assertions that my argument is solely that romances made the game bad, which was never my point and entirely devised in your head.

Nope. You just did EXACTLY what I asked you not to do here

That is part of the problem but with Bioware the problem is more related to EA wanting to milk their IPs for as much profit as possible before they close the division down entirely. I have made partially an argument that modern streamlining of games hurts them, because in many cases it does,but do not mistake that for the crux of my argument here,as you have with my example of the romances. The crux of my argument is that Bioware, forced by EA to try and expand their market share and increase sales, chose the path of pandering to expand market share at the expense of their core fan community and it bit them in the ass.

And also one more thing: Don't forget that the POINT of the Dragon Age franchise was SUPPOSED TO BE that it was made specifically for the core gamer demographic who had been begging for a new Baldur's Gate 2 type game for a decade. So its not that all franchises being modernized and targeted towards casuals is an issue, but rather that the franchise specifically MARKETED to those people as a game for them, by them, is being watered down and casualized.

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Troll harder Tucbro. You are intentionally misrepresenting my position.

You're trying to argue that DA 2 wasn't bad because of unfocused development and an overemphasis on the bullshit and style over the substance of the gameplay.Whether thats the argument you wanted to make when you started or not, that's the argument you've been making by trying to argue that I'm wrong that unfocused development and overemphasis on bullshit and style over the substance of the gameplay are exactly why the game was a giant honking pile of shit.

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Try reading the entire paragraph next time.

You can't simultaneously appeal to the core demographic and the casuals because one half of that equation does not desire or value core gameplay mechanics.

Bioware's own statements on WHY they changed what they changed about DA2:

Reader, Gavin points us towards an interesting discussion unfolding on the Bioware forums, where lead designer Mike Laidlaw, has been talking to fans about the most controversial changes made to the Dragon Age: Origins formula for Dragon Age 2, saying"I've said it before, and I will say it again: we stripped some stuff out of DA becuase it was busted"

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How was it busted? Luckily he goes on to explain to us what is busted from Bioware's point of view and why.

"If I'm going to piss you guys off, it's going to be because I still firmly believe that RPGs do need to be more accessible to new players," Laidlaw adds. "Not diminished, but made less imposing and less terrifying to new players. In part because I want more people to play Dragon Age, and in part because there have been a lot of improvements in gameplay and UI design in the past 15 years, and we can learn from them."

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What's busted is that the isometric view, stats allocation and other aspects are viewed as "inaccessible" to new players, so it must be stripped out because it is busted.

Except that the game sold less than Dragon Age Origins. Because maybe, just maybe, that gameplay from DA:O isn't so inaccessible after all. And maybe, just maybe, some of those basic UI functions and gameplay designs going back to Black Isle studios have stood the test of time, and its unfortunate that people at Bioware don't respect that.

AGAIN: Bioware PROMISED US that Dragon Age as an intellectual property WAS GEARED AND AIMED SPECIFICALLY AT THE OLD SCHOOL HARD CORES. That's a lot different from other games. It was marketed and sold as aimed and geared towards primarily us, and then the sequel went a completely different 180 degree out of phase direction with those promises. That's the issue. Not that the whole industry is casualized, though it is. But that the one game we were promised was FOR US was bastardized for a dime.

Tuco_sl said:

It's not a complex argument even if you convolute it with too many words. DA2 sucked because they made dumb decisions not because they gave it the CoD treatment.

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DA2 sucked because the dumb decisions being made were the ones that led to it receiving the CoD treatment.

The rest of the paragraph is irrelevant for two reasons. One, I didn't argue that you're wrong that "unfocused development and overemphasis on bullshit and style over the substance of the gameplay are exactly why the game was a giant honking pile of shit"

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That's literally what you've been arguing against with me this entire morning.

For instance, I said this

he primary cause of Bioware going to shit is that they are focused on appealing to as broad a segment of society as possible, which means focusing on stupid shit like romance and flashy press button win bacon gameplay. This isn't remotely debateable.

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To which you said

Agraza_sl said:

You're jumping several steps to a conclusion.

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And then you proceeded to argue that my position was that romance options were the sole reason the game was shit. This is literally all you've been doing all morning. But I'm the unrational, unreasonable one here.

I'm curious what information you have that even demonstrates what their focus was and whether they were distracted from it.

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I'm curious why you type this sentence when you can scroll up and read me quoting multiple multiple Bioware direct sources saying stupid shit that clearly demonstrates what their focus was and whether they were distracted from it or not.

Intellectually dishonest BS at this point, Agraza, is all you've got left.

I have spent the entire morning citing you references on Bioware saying stupid shit that clearly shows their priorities were fucked while making this game.

We can spread this out to Mass Effect 3, their response to its ending, and their lolworthy tripe over SWTOR as well if you'd like. I've tried to keep this mostly about DA2.

I did not ever argue that your position was that the romance options were the sole reason for anything

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I'm also not trying to expand my opinion about the romance aspect to be more significant. You said that they made changes to DA2 that made it worse. One of those was romance stuff. This isn't plausible, since they both had them.

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You're jumping several steps to a conclusion. And again, romance options are available in BOTH games. It doesn't distinguish one from the other. This is some pretty basic logic fail here.

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I've been consistent. My argument has not changed. The romance options are not a factor in the disparity in their commercial or critical successes.

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You have been more focused on the romance shit than I ever was. I made the romance bullshit point once early as an example of how unfocused they were, and you've been arguing almost entirely against that position the entire time as if it were the crux, the only real argument I had here for why the game is shit.

Tuco_sl said:

DA2 being shitty because Bioware did a shitty job of appealing to a larger demographic doesn't demand that all appeals to a larger demographic are going to result in shitty games. This statement basically refutes your argument so I'm going to declare victory.

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I never made that argument. In fact I specifically asked you to not think that was the crux of my argument, because its not. This is you strawmanning.