EQ F2P- Returning Players & Current Content

K

Krozman

N00b
99
-2
Kreugen_sl said:
Oh come on, Paladins were not the best raid MT (or a raid MT period) at any point of Everquest's history unless the mob had an unresistable fear (aka two bosses in PoT). The only way a Paladin was ever a MT for a guild is if he was the fucking guild leader, and said guild was sure as hell not on leading edge of progression. Defensive broke the game and everything had to be tuned for it. The pissant shit they tried to add to knights over the years as a "weak but situationally useful!" alternative was a joke.

But yes, SKs can be the most useful group tank if you're willing to work at it and don't care that some named will stomp a hole in your ass. And soon they will have a tool that should fix that. But most of the time its just a hell of a lot more button smashing to accomplish the same aggro and dps (questionable) a warrior can do by turning auto attack on. And no group or raid will want you because there are eleven billion SKs who spent all their time swarm-kiting in Vergalid and likely have shit gear and no clue how to actually play the class in a group or raid. They have the same stigma that any of the solo-friendly classes have had in EQ over the years.

Paladins are still worthless, you give up a shitload of damage for extra heals and cures, whoopie. You don't heal mobs to death. Their abilities are weak and redundant if there's any kind of healer present, even a merc. Paladins have no reason to exist. I suppose a non-boxed Paladin can be preferable in a raid group to some guy's alt shaman that he only brought along to cast DPS buffs and heal himself. (which describes most of the healers in any given raid) But in that case, the person should just be playing a real healer.

Anyway, my 90 warrior was awesome. But I didn't get far into HoT - like so many others I realized paying for 3 accounts to sit there by myself playing EQ with no end-goal in mind was pointless. I'm playing a rogue on Vulak now and borrowing the boxes I need.

And Flight, lol, nothing makes me laugh harder than warriors complaining about S&B doing more damage than dual wield. You know what I call doing the same damage a monk while also having shield block and shitloads of extra AC? Fucking awesome, that's what. Also, look at it this way: With shield specialist you only need one tank weapon and one dps weapon to bandolier, instead of two tank weapons + two more ranger swords or a 2H for dps. What a pain that was. Remember, before shield specialist, knights actually had a bit of EHP advantage outside of /disc defensive. Knights had shields for extra AC and, for one (or two?) glorious expansion(s), the extra advantage of shield block without giving up as much DPS. Shield specialist took that advantage away.. and warriors are the ones complaining because they think it somehow hurts their position in the DPS parse. What a joke. What they really want is for dual wield to be buffed beyond what S&B is doing so they can parse higher - when what SOE hears is "well, I guess they want us to nerf shield specialist so that it won't outdo dual wield" - the end result being you will do less damage than before. Good plan! This is SOE, be very careful what you ask for.

And there's no way merc tanks are better than a real tank unless you are WAY behind in tiers on gear. As in still wearing defiant.

Of course the real answer to all this mess is forget having a tank at all and play mage + shaman + whatever non-melee.
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All due respect Kreugen, but your current grasp on the current state of EQ characters must be based on really shitty characters. You're way off base.

Firstly, other than clerics, paladins are the single biggest factor in the success of a given raid. I'm not talking about the stupid shitty ones you apparently experience day to day. I'm talking about good ones. A good paladin is virtually unkillable, except by raid bosses that can one shot anyone unless they are full defensive, and I can count them on one hand. Look at any heal parse with a paladin tank and you'll see that our numbers are equal to or greater than 1.5 clerics spamming the paladin. In a world now where mob positioning, tank switches, and emotes require constant attention, knowing that you can go without a cleric while holding aggro beyond any possible break is something no other class can do. Combine that, which is unrefutable, with everything else we do. We are the best HoTT healers in the game. We are the only classes that have the ablity to do AE heals/cures consistently. Our divine call can now lurch pull better than any monk. We buff deaggro on the highest DPS and healing modifiers on the warriors.

The only reason a paladin doesn't MT more on raids is purely because warriors need something to do, and we're too busy trivializing the rest of the raid.

So when you say paladins have no reason to exist, you're basically admitting you have no basis of knowledge whatsoever.

You play a rogue. You're outclassed by Beastlords, wizards, and beserkers significantly on the dps side, and your raid utility is zero. The only dps class I would prefer a rogue over is probably Monk, and it's not by a lot. If I have no rogues on a raid day, I don't blink. If I have less than 3 paladins, I wont even call a non farm raid. It's that signficiant.

Maybe you should get in a guild where modern people play modern raids before you pass yourself off as an expert.
 
Kreugen

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
Well I certainly hope I didn't claim to be an expert. I went off on a tangent that I didn't really intend. I did get confused with some people playing on live vs the people playing on test for progression and so on. And I don't think I said I was talking about end game raiding. But good to know things changed for the better so drastically in the last couple of expansions and Paladins aren't just SKs with equivalent self healing plus an AOE heal and drastically less dps as everyone else was claiming. And its good that raids are so trivial that defensive isn't even needed. They must have really done a 180 after Underfoot.

And yes I am well aware that rogues and really any melee are pretty much in the shithouse right now. (Bear in mind that "right now" is two to three years in the future for me) But I find them simple, relaxing and enjoyable and that was the goal. The nice thing about not having any utility is not being stuck on bitch duty all the time. Target mobs, kill mobs, tab out and laugh at pictures of cats on the internet. I briefly did the berserker thing before and didn't like it much. I assume at some point they get better ways to manage aggro but at the time, ugh.

But I'm still wondering what "just after classic" raid guilds had Paladin MTs.
 
K

Krozman

N00b
99
-2
Starting with UF encounters have been designed specifically for paladins in mind. And Defensive isn't worthless. It's just that the additional warrior mitigation and higher AC softcap is far inferior to the amount of healing paladins give themselves. Most RoF raids I run still use warrior MTs, but if I had 12 paladins instead of 6 wars, 4 pals and 2 SKs I dont think I would be any less limited, except on a couple where full warrior defensive is the only thing saving them from a one shot kill (pre nerf vulak).

Rogues need a lot of help to make them minimally competitive on the dps charts, ....ideally a bard, shaman, beastlord and zerker in group (so basically 2 rogues in every raid get a good dps spot, the rest get a shaman and whatever is left in that combo). A wizard slightly benefits from a druid and/or enchanter, but if I put them in a group with a bunch of rangers their dps doesn't significantly fall off. Combine that with the fact that they're melee dps, so right there you have dropoffs on most raids.
 
M

MrBelding_sl

shitlord
143
3
Mikey78_sl said:
Good to hear that warriors are not completely borked as some have said. . .I love my warrior.

One question on his aa. He is 63 right now with 150 aa. Should I always max combat agility and stability? I have three of each and I know that up to 8, you get 1% before you start getting 0.5%. Best practice to go to 8 on each?
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Steel Warriorhttp://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/

and Shadowknight forumhttp://www.evilgamer.net/forums/

have probably way too much information on that stuff. You'll want to max both eventually but there are points where it's better to grab other stuff first. Wherever the big dropoff is is probably a good place to stock up on other things like HP probably.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
24,706
32,106
Janx_sl said:
If you and Saban get something going, I could use the j5 on my ranger Janxs (lvl82)
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I'm still on my goofy schedule where I wake up at 2am and go to bed at 4pm. I'm slowly working my way to being on a regular schedule so maybe later this week I will be on at night.
 
Borzak

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
24,706
32,106
MrBelding_sl said:
Steel Warriorhttp://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/

and Shadowknight forumhttp://www.evilgamer.net/forums/

have probably way too much information on that stuff. You'll want to max both eventually but there are points where it's better to grab other stuff first. Wherever the big dropoff is is probably a good place to stock up on other things like HP probably.
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Not a warrior but I tried to keep mine maxed as I leveled just for the reason that if you don't you wind up having to grind out 250ish AA to max them later on which would really blow.
 
S

Saban_sl

shitlord
892
-2
Half done the last J5 quest besides the group one. Gonna finish it tomorrow. Wish i had known that you don't need to do underfoot quests for field armorer and bracing defense anymore, now im at just under 6k AC from 5.2k.
 
Apostolos

Apostolos

Golden Knight of the Realm
432
220
See this is one thing that bothers me a little bit. I am playing a shamy with a necro (93 and 82 respectively) Im just doing AA on the shaman while I try to catch the necro up. However, I am kinda worried that a merc will not be able to tank stuff in VoA and RoF. I heard that the 97 necro pet can tank ok with a shamy slowing on single pulls, but that is a long way off.
 
bixxby

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
2,750
47
A level 100 necro pet can tank tier 2 mobs np. Not sure what kinda focuses the guy had, but his pet was beast as shit.
 
F

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
285
Kreugen_sl said:
Oh come on, Paladins were not the best raid MT (or a raid MT period) at any point of Everquest's history unless the mob had an unresistable fear (aka two bosses in PoT). The only way a Paladin was ever a MT for a guild is if he was the fucking guild leader, and said guild was sure as hell not on leading edge of progression. Defensive broke the game and everything had to be tuned for it.
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As an aside I was first person on my server to get Defensive/Myrmidon and possibly first server wide. It was bugged for a while - Defensive reduced the damage taken but didn't reduce your DPS as it was supposed to at that time.

My guild were not only on leading edge content but doing world firsts for a year or two, including throughout GoD, which was the hardest content the game ever had.

The problem for a while wasn't tanking ability, it was that Warriors couldn't reliably generate hate and hold aggro. Pallies never had that problem due to their heals and stuns. Of course GoD was fucked up by the expansion being balanced for a 5 level increase which was pulled before release.

Mercs were indeed shit for a few years at higher levels, including before and through Underfoot. Post level 85 J5 mercs were once again given the ability they had pre lvl 75/85.

I have 7 different classes over lvl 85, so I have a decent overview. Mercs are better group tanks than Warrior - and most certainly for boxers who are in the majority these days. Mage and Necro pets can tank far too well but if you use one of those you can't use melee players because the pets won't keep aggro due to proximity. SK and Pallie can heal themselves while they tank as well as bring enormous benefits. Groups with a good Pallie/SK don't even need a healer or healer merc. Beastlord tanks well for the group game as well as putting out significant DPS and bringing utility - including slow.


Warriors used to have two thing to make up for it :

i) higher softcap. innate bonus mitigation and more added AC; this is now such a slight advantage it's negligible.

ii) the fact that EQ defined rough ranges for various melee and tanks DPS output, which was the 120 / 100 / 85 I was talking about. Now when you watch certain classes put out 3, 4 or 5 times your DPS 'those times they have a changed'.


At the end of the day people should play what they feel drawn to. But make the decision being aware of the state of the game because the one thing that remains true is that Warriors are still by far the most gear dependant classes and that means constantly keeping it the best it can be as well as having the best AC slots there are in every slot.


As a closing aside HoT is now part of the F2P content.
 
Aamry

Aamry

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,272
1,929
Is there a leveling guide someplace? I haven't played in ages, so I started up a zerker, and got him to level 12, but I need guidance. Por Favor.
 
Kreugen

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
793
So if for some godfuck reason I decide to make my own boxes for SOD and beyond (still a year away), I assume the best 3 box for a rogue would be shaman (duh) + bard, because that way I'd have pulls and CC covered. The other "best" option as far as I can tell would be SK, but that falls into the goddamn trap of having an alt that needs more gear and AA than the raiding main. rogue/bard/shaman seems ideal because of the low gear required + ability to handle lots of different zones and missions.

That said, I know jack shit about bards and I could be way wrong. But the idea sounds better than gearing a fucking tank, which I may wind up having to do anyway well before SOD ever gets released. Plus a bard seems like something I could tolerate bringing with me to raids, unlike nearly anything else.
 
N

Nulolan

N00b
108
1
I box a rogue, shaman and bard currently. Lately I been thinking about ditching the shaman for something else though.. I rarely use slow anymore. The buffs are nice and the spot heals are nice when the cleric merc is slacking, but i really feel I would be better off with something else. Been tossing around the idea of switching her out for a druid or mage.

My team is mid 90's now, so not very top end and I could very well be wrong about the shaman.
 
F

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
285
Kreugen_sl said:
So if for some godfuck reason I decide to make my own boxes for SOD and beyond (still a year away), I assume the best 3 box for a rogue would be shaman (duh) + bard, because that way I'd have pulls and CC covered. The other "best" option as far as I can tell would be SK, but that falls into the goddamn trap of having an alt that needs more gear and AA than the raiding main. rogue/bard/shaman seems ideal because of the low gear required + ability to handle lots of different zones and missions.

That said, I know jack shit about bards and I could be way wrong. But the idea sounds better than gearing a fucking tank, which I may wind up having to do anyway well before SOD ever gets released. Plus a bard seems like something I could tolerate bringing with me to raids, unlike nearly anything else.
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About spot on mate given the Rogue is there.

Bard pulling is crazy OP due to a list of things :

Boasftul Bellow (AA) instant DD with long distance

Fading memories (AA) removes you from every aggro list you are on and instantly makes you invisible

Lull

Mez

Highsun sends any mob back to spawn point


For example for that difficult split for last part of J5 it's trivial for a Bard. Lots of ways to do it eg pull them all, mez the one you want on inc then fade, rest wander back, mob you want stays mezzed.


Also the Shaman and Bard Epic 1.5/2.0 clickies (cast from inventory) are still massively powerful, especially for melees. If you throw in a Tank and Rogue Merc, to go with a healer Merc, it's a decent set up.
 
K

Krozman

N00b
99
-2
Nulolan_sl said:
I box a rogue, shaman and bard currently. Lately I been thinking about ditching the shaman for something else though.. I rarely use slow anymore. The buffs are nice and the spot heals are nice when the cleric merc is slacking, but i really feel I would be better off with something else. Been tossing around the idea of switching her out for a druid or mage.

My team is mid 90's now, so not very top end and I could very well be wrong about the shaman.
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You will regret ditching the shaman if you are set on keeping the rogue. The epic clicky alone is enough. The rest depends on how you play the group game. If you eventually want to do current content and hunt named it wouldnt be harmful to kill the bard for a tank class. However, tank classes are very gear and AA dependant. It would be a long time before they're good. A mage, if played well, might be a very nice fit with the bard and shaman, but not so much complementary with your rogue.

Personally I have my raid geared paladin main, but I box an enchanter, bard, and wizard. Wizards hit their discs and named, mobs, whatever, just fall down and die. They are completely ridiculous dps and would KS your entire group without effort. I keep the enchanter for buffs, debuffs and CC and they are far less maintenance for boxing (as is the wizard) I created the bard b/c i needed a tracker, but a bard will complement any group as already mentioned. If they do nothing but melody 5 songs and melee dps they are doing ok, and of course if you perfect them they are a fun class to play.

Pulling wise, all of my classes can pull. The paladin is faster than all of them with the new lurch/fade technique. Faster difficult pulls than any class in the game. Bards have 10 pulling tools but when you box you dont want downtime. Enchanters can mez/punt/stasis pull very effectively. So among all my characters I have about 5 different pulling techniques as the situation calls for it. But as many would note I have a lot of utility and not enough dps, so the wizard does nothing but bring the pain. Two healer mercs keep the tank alive even if i'm on another box (and therefore not self healing on paladin), and it's a full group that I have used for two expansions now, defeating all group content, hunter, conquest acheivements, etc.
 
G

Grimson_sl

shitlord
39
0
I'm gonna stick it out with my warrior. Thanks for your post Kreugan it helps to know we aren't totally gimp/unneeded.
Started HoT Progression too but need to get some levels first so i can actually participate and not just be sitting in GL getting added to tasks.
Seem to be a lot of people looking to do HoT so hopefully there will be groups when i get to 85+.
If anyone is willing to do a little PLing i would love you long time.
 
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