EQ Never

The first character I ever rolled was a Dark Elf Necro. I recall being so frustrated by the darkness. Somehow, though, I wandered and wandered and killed shit and had lots of fun until I actually found myself, around level 5, unknowingly in the Ogre starting zone (not the city, but the forest area). I remember dying there and not being able to find my corpse or do anything. I had to call my RL friend who was a bit higher level who got frustrated trying to help me, because he kept searching near where Dark Elfs start, until my descriptions clued him into where my corpse actually was. This timespan was probably over a week or so, and it was some of the most fun I have ever had in a game.

I'm not for spawning a dude in complete darkness, with no clues as to what to do or where to look. But there are ways to provide some real immersion via darkness, a sense of being "lost" as well, and also provide clues as to what to do or where to look, etc., in order to reach more newbie options.

You had trouble with darkness as a Dark Elf? Ok...

Ukerric_sl said:

Yes. In those days, you endured, because it was - litterally - the only game in town.

These days? They adjust. They click "uninstall", post some scathing comments on their friends' social network, and go to the next game which doesn't try to punish them for choosing the wrong race 5mn after they began playing.

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I don't buy that a bunch of mongoloids are going to uninstall a game because they can't run through a forest without searching for a light source. What kind of fucking gamers are developers these days trying to appeal to? It sounds like they're making games for children in Tibet and that's why these games don't have longevity.

Ukerric_sl said:

Yes. In those days, you endured, because it was - litterally - the only game in town.

These days? They adjust. They click "uninstall", post some scathing comments on their friends' social network, and go to the next game which doesn't try to punish them for choosing the wrong race 5mn after they began playing.

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Totally agree. Which is why I'm skeptical about "the next great MMO" even being possible. Players have no tolerance anymore.

Like I said before, the argument that people wouldn't like certain designs is an unfalsifiable claim. Most people have never played a game like UO or EQ or Lineage, thus they have no frame of reference and can't make those decisions.

Ukerric_sl said:

The worst offender, as someone said, was human ranger/druids starting in Surefall Glades. You had nothing in there, and you NEEDED to cross a completely dark tunnel, even during the day, to step into the Qeynos Hills. You literally had to hug the tunnel wall and hope you zoned somewhere at one point.

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LOL, I remember that. One time it took me, literally, 30 minutes to zone out. And that sad part was, I just got lucky.

I remember turning my gamma to maximum overdrive when trying to get through the tunnel from Everfrost to Blackburrow.

Merlin_sl said:

LOL, I remember that. One time it took me, literally, 30 minutes to zone out. And that sad part was, I just got lucky.

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I feel like at one point the zoneline was wonky too, because I remember zoning in and out like 5 times wondering, "HOW THE FUCK." because I was trying to hug the wall and keep moving forward, but just ended up in zone-loop limbo. Fuck that tunnel forever

Dandai_sl said:

That wasn't half as bad as going to Blackburrow on the Everfrost side. I remember walking backwards to look at the entrance to the cave to make sure I was actually moving and not just running into a wall.

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Not only that, but as a Barbarian you started in Halas. To go out into the world for killable mobs, you had to cross that lake into the tunnel leading from Halas to Everfrost. At night, it was pitch black.. while nowhere near as difficult to navigate as the Surefall tunnel, it was still complete darkness at level 1. But yes, the tunnel from Everfrost to Blackburrow was fucking brutal. You had gnolls in there that could (would) kill you in complete fucking darkness. Say you had your shit together and bought a Lantern or Torch? Died in Blackburrow? Guess what.. have fun with your naked corpse run through the gnoll rape tunnels!

All of that said, it made for some crazy memories. Just dont say it didnt exist in early levels!

*Dude above complaining about "darkness" as a Dark Elf? You have no idea what darkness is.

Teekey_sl said:

I love how people keep using this (Denial of Service) quote...It's hilarious.

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The whole Denial of Service thing is great. I kinda suspect that Jeff realizes it gets a rise out of the crowd and basically trolls us with it. If that is in fact the case, then well done sir. It's funny.

The 'no inconveniences' direction they seem to be heading with many aspects of the game so far is certainly a little troublesome though. A synonym for the word inconvenience is difficulty. Check out how google defines the word convenience:
1. the state of being able to proceed with something with little effort or difficulty.
2. a public toilet. (British)

Hopefully they strike some sort of balance and every damn detail of the game isn't 'convenient.' If everything about the game is a non-challenging public toilet, it will hold the attention of mature gamers for all of about 15 minutes. It makes perfect sense tho (and is good design) for the game to be easier at first and ramp up in difficulty as you go, not the other way around.

supertouch_sl said:

Like I said before, the argument that people wouldn't like certain designs is an unfalsifiable claim. Most people have never played a game like UO or EQ or Lineage, thus they have no frame of reference and can't make those decisions.

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Richard Bartle's thoughts on this subject.

In general, players view all their subsequent virtual worlds in the light cast from their first one. They will demand that features from their first world be added to their current world, even if those very features were partly responsible for why they left the first world. They'll say they hate treadmills, but if their first experience was in a virtual world with treadmills, then they'll gravitate towards other virtual worlds with treadmills, all the while still hating them.

There's a long explanation for this, to do with the search for identity, which I won't delve into here because you only need to know that players do behave this way, not why (that's a different rant).

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I wonder how an MMORPG that had a defined ending date would be received. An ending that was far enough in the future to be able to delve into the world, but close enough that a player could see the end coming. Say 2.5-3 years from launch to close. Follow an episodic story arc like a television series. Players would get totally invested in the product... you could sell subscriptions for the entire period.

uniqueuser_sl said:

Richard Bartle's thoughts on this subject.

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Don't buy it. I see where he's coming from, but if this was true, I'd be looking for turtle shells, mushrooms, and fire breathing plants in every game I played. Certainly your past experiences will color your future expectations, but most gamers have the ability to advance with the games they play.

Arden_sl said:

Don't buy it. I see where he's coming from, but if this was true, I'd be looking for turtle shells, mushrooms, and fire breathing plants in every game I played. Certainly your past experiences will color your future expectations, but most gamers have the ability to advance with the games they play.

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I guess that depends on whether you classify an arcade game (Super Mario) as a 'virtual world'. I, personally, don't. I think his observation is pretty spot on within the genre they apply to - so for MMO's, your first experience definitely colors your opinion of all subsequent ones - for good or ill.

He begins with some decent points, but he goes on to use them to poorly found conclusions about features like perma death and instancing. He's a hardcore dumbass with apparently no comprehension that the internet isn't as reliable as his kitchen faucet.

One of his later points is that you shouldn't be able to play with your friends, and that you should make new ones because travel should take time (aka be tedious as fuck). Sorry I don't have 3 hours in a day to play 30 minutes worth of content and developers have thus far failed to make travel interesting. It's like saying you should have to fashion a monopoly board each time you want to play monopoly, and you should have to play with whoever is standing next to you at the time rather than play with your friends 3 blocks over. That sounds fun as fuck, Hasbro should get right on that.

What is "30 minutes of content" in an MMO? Your first mistake is comparing the entertainment value of virtual worlds to that of a board game.

I dont think the majority of players (note I dont say players, not gamers) are actually looking for a virtual world. And I think that additions that are perceived as negative to players of current-gen MMOs are very difficult to sell. A tiny fragment of them will embrace the challenge and become actual gamers, the rest will seek greener pastures very quickly. SOE is probably going to attempt retaining those players... the design choices and changes resulting from that goal are going to lead to a less interesting virtual world for the people that are actually looking for a product that places the integrity of the world ahead of the whims of the playerbase.

supertouch_sl said:

What is "30 minutes of content" in an MMO? Your first mistake is comparing the entertainment value of virtual worlds to that of a board game.

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Upon further reflection my example is terrible in so many ways, but his opinions are still idiotic.

TragedyAnn_sl said:

Totally agree. Which is why I'm skeptical about "the next great MMO" even being possible. Players have no tolerance anymore.

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"The next great MMO" will not be a carbon copy of what has gone before with minor improvements, ala WoW. It worked for WoW because they were the first to make a user friendly (and crappy computer friendly) MMO. They didn't innovate, they just made what worked, better.

But what worked back then doesn't work anymore. You can still make money filling niches that other's have ignored, like hardcore mmo's, etc. But that wont bring in WoW numbers. To bring in WoW numbers will require some sort of entertainment innovation that isn't even on the radar yet AND a tap into the mass zeigeist of the times. WoW wasn't just successful because they made a decent mmo that was fun and easy to play. They also were fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. The masses were looking for a game to play that could act like a social network of sorts, and WoW fit the bill.

For WoW to be dethroned it will take a shift like MySpace felt when Facebook took over.