EQ Never

Xexx

Vyemm Raider
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There is absolutely room for improvement. Never once ever did I say EQ was perfect, but it was significantly superior to anything that has come out since, and a lot of what made it great is everything that is missing from modern MMO's. You can make improvements, but there's also no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Going to agree, having raided and sunk more hours than i care to admit in most of the main MMOs since EQ1 i still think it was the game with the most risk(time?)/reward. Getting loot in EQ after whatever you had to do to obtain it felt like a real accomplishment. EQ2 tried to copy that feel and fell short, and WoW....well if you did that cockblock of a cloak quest and other lame similar quest you know it felt more like a relief to be done with it, more than an actual accomplishment.

However like its been said, those days are gone, and even if you and others know that EQ was a huge success in the end, thats only until WoW came with its crushing numbers. In the end the game will be made to cater to the largest possible crowd and the hardcore crowd that likes to race for mobs, and tout being #1 is not it.
 

Hootie

Silver Knight of the Realm
216
62
We need a smaller team to develop a more focused game. What is it about an MMO that costs so much money? Why can't we have our niche game that is EQ-like but with modern mechanics? I refuse to believe that such a game could not make money.
It just needs to be cost controlled and marketed correctly. Why can't a small team at an existing studio create the game using an existing engine(so many MMO engines exist now) to keep it simple. You spend ten months making a template and simple design features.You expand your staff for 6 months only for content. Hire cheap help to create quests, lore NPC's, idea's for zones. I'm not talking about the programmers, pay them top dollar. I'm talking about art directors, artists, writers get them cheap. Use old resources a big company should have, old graphics, scripts, writing. Heck the industry is already expert at getting the public to test the product for free.

I guess i just wonder how these companies churn out AAA shooters and sports games every year but an MMO takes 5 years and 200 million dollars. I know it is vastly different but i see indie developers make amazing games with a small staff.

TL;DR I think an EQ-like MMO could make money, it just has to be made on the cheap. I would also market it specifically as a hardcore game. I have not seen anyone say this. I know it would scare game companies, but i think this is key. People will pay to be different.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
There is absolutely room for improvement. Never once ever did I say EQ was perfect, but it was significantly superior to anything that has come out since, and a lot of what made it great is everything that is missing from modern MMO's. You can make improvements, but there's also no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Outside a death penalty, EQ is represented in some fashion, and better, in almost every MMO.
 

slippery

<Bronze Donator>
7,899
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Going to agree, having raided and sunk more hours than i care to admit in most of the main MMOs since EQ1 i still think it was the game with the most risk(time?)/reward. Getting loot in EQ after whatever you had to do to obtain it felt like a real accomplishment. EQ2 tried to copy that feel and fell short, and WoW....well if you did that cockblock of a cloak quest and other lame similar quest you know it felt more like a relief to be done with it, more than an actual accomplishment.

However like its been said, those days are gone, and even if you and others know that EQ was a huge success in the end, thats only until WoW came with its crushing numbers. In the end the game will be made to cater to the largest possible crowd and the hardcore crowd that likes to race for mobs, and tout being #1 is not it.
I think that aptly describes MMO's now a days. Relief at being done with something, not a sense of accomplishment.
 

RobXIII

Urinal Cake Consumption King
<Gold Donor>
3,714
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I'll make you a niche MMO. I'll start a kickstarter. BRB. Can anyone here do networking and database coding?
I'll be your best asset: I wrote a bunch of stuff on a napkin you see...
rrr_img_75653.jpg
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
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Outside a death penalty, EQ is represented in some fashion, and better, in almost every MMO.
You can spew this bullshit all you want, it won't make it true. EQ had meaningful rare loot (not done in today's MMO's), contested content (not done in today's MMO's), a very steep, punishing leveling curve (name me a modern MMO that you can't hit max level in under a week?), class interdependence (not done in today's MMO's), high level mobs mixed in in low level areas (not done in today's MMO's), a large, sprawling world that took more than two minutes to travel around in (not done in today's MMO's), quests that didn't hold your hand and literally just tell you what to do and where to go next (not done in today's MMO's), raids without number caps, etc..
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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it felt more like a relief to be done with it, more than an actual accomplishment.
That's because at no point did you feel like you could be blocked or fail it. In fact, before you started, you already knew that, barring giving up, you would finish it. You didn't had to guess, you even knew that you didn't really need help or anything.

(this is why VT key quest felt like a chore while doing VT itself was an accomplishment - you knew you'd get the key eventually, while you didn't knew if your guild would be able to finish the zone - at least at first)
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
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EQ had meaningful rare loot (not done in today's MMO's), contested content (not done in today's MMO's), a very steep, punishing leveling curve (name me a modern MMO that you can't hit max level in under a week?), class interdependence (not done in today's MMO's), high level mobs mixed in in low level areas (not done in today's MMO's), a large, sprawling world that took more than two minutes to travel around in (not done in today's MMO's), quests that didn't hold your hand and literally just tell you what to do and where to go next (not done in today's MMO's), raids without number caps, etc..
Except for the last one, you seem to consider the EQ's implementation of rare loot, content access, leveling curve, dependance, unbeatable enemies at appropriate level, long travel time and obscure quests as good, while Draegan said explicitly "and better". What you consider good features was considered by many devs AND players as bad.

Outside of the few tier-1 raiders, everyone hated finding all raid targets down on friday. People hated spending 1h waiting for a party spot for their class to open ("sorry, we need a cleric, not a rogue"). Plane of Tranquility was hailed by the players as the best thing since sliced bread, except by Dumar.

The only thing that EQ had that was player-friendly was the lack of raid capping and the ass-tight tuning and guild-devastation ("sorry, we need to bench you tonight" "again? /GQ" "well, that was the second time in three months? what happened?") that came with that feature. It only took WoW 9 years to finally figure it out and introduce Flex.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
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Except for the last one, you seem to consider the EQ's implementation of rare loot, content access, leveling curve, dependance, unbeatable enemies at appropriate level, long travel time and obscure quests as good, while Draegan said explicitly "and better". What you consider good features was considered by many devs AND players as bad.

Outside of the few tier-1 raiders, everyone hated finding all raid targets down on friday. People hated spending 1h waiting for a party spot for their class to open ("sorry, we need a cleric, not a rogue"). Plane of Tranquility was hailed by the players as the best thing since sliced bread, except by Dumar.

The only thing that EQ had that was player-friendly was the lack of raid capping and the ass-tight tuning and guild-devastation ("sorry, we need to bench you tonight" "again? /GQ" "well, that was the second time in three months? what happened?") that came with that feature. It only took WoW 9 years to finally figure it out and introduce Flex.
Not only that but some of his statements are blatantly false. WoW has both meaningful loot that is incredibly hard to find now and is a gigantic world. Quite a few games have contested content in some form or other. Also, which game started making smaller worlds with a Book of Knowledge? Who really started the instanced content craze with LDoN? How many Bards, Necros, Mages, Beastlords, and Druids needed anyone during huge parts of their leveling experience? How many of EQs quests were broken in the beginning? Are still broken today or just cleared out? Who quested in EQ outside of a very select few quest?

Selective memory and disdaining any thought outside of his own, Etchazz just came on here to boost his tuconets a bit with the same group of people that have wanted the same thing since 2002. The first two years of EQ updated just a bit. Next!

Edit- Daidraco, lol, just a dig at etchazz.
 

Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm
9,418
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Well, disregarding everything thats been said about the actual theory of what makes a game popular - Etchazz is far from farming nets if you cant tell
tongue.png
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,290
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I really don't get the whole removal of "levels" / addition of "tiers" debate. Isn't it just the same exact measurement of time? SoE already did this whole tier thing with EQ2. Even in the original game (all the bs mechanics aside), 1-10 = T1, 1-20 = T2, 21-30 = T3, 31-40 = T4, and 41-50 = T5. Now think about it for a second because yes, there were still levels but everything else about the tier system were identical. You were geographically locked out of higher tiers, all gear was locked to your appropriate "tier" (or lower), your spells / abilities were all according to your "tier". Each tier progressively just added +gooder stats, ability, and power.

To me, it just seems like the same old tiering locks but instead of levels as the unit of measure, its gear... and lets be honest, it all just meanstime investment.

Same old same old.
 

Big_w_powah

Trakanon Raider
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But whats wrong with them switching up level grinding for the gear grind? Just because it boils down to time investment doesn't mean that the time investment to get gear can't be far more varied. Some camping, some mini-raiding, some questing, etc..As opposed to all quest or mob grinding.
 

Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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But whats wrong with them switching up level grinding for the gear grind? Just because it boils down to time investment doesn't mean that the time investment to get gear can't be far more varied. Some camping, some mini-raiding, some questing, etc..As opposed to all quest or mob grinding.
Im totally fine with it personally. Theyre adding Voxels and some names I can reminisce over. But now I dont have to climb to level 90 before I do anything. Honestly, the only time I ever paid attention to quests in WoW was when they had a cinematic or similar. So outside of the fanatic lore nerd that reads every collect 50 bear ass quest text, what is the point?

There are far more interesting ways to explain lore, and make it to where a person has a choice to actively seek out lore. Dont even start that shit about "It teaches you how to play your class." Cause you know damn well that the leveling experience in MMOs does jack and shit in that process. I only remember one experience where I thought "Man, thats a pretty good start in the right direction!" and that was in Cataclysm where a random NPC had telegraphs similar to a boss. But after that... I never saw anything that I would see as a useful teaching tool to noobies, again.

People are going to try Next just because its barrier to entry is going to be so small. Its free to play, theres no leveling bullshit to put up with and I really believe that they are going to make it feasible to still realistically group with someone up to tier 3 when you start. That is, if we end up having 5 tiers.
 

Archdruid Archeron

the Site Surgeon
<Granularity Engineer>
579
2,288
I am not convinced that they are sufficiently committed to making a great EQNext game.

At this point, I think that Landmark is going to be the better of the two games because it is resting on the shoulders of VoxelFarm.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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Isn't it just the same exact measurement of time?
It's not. Because apparently, tiers are not fungible. You can't grind mobs from tier 1 to tier 5; you need to achieve different things to unlock your tiers. You can't move from grinding level 10 raptors to level 20 raptors to level, each tier has completely different activities tied to it. Their original example (last year) was that, to unlock tier 4, you needed a full set of tier 3 armor.
 

Laerazi_sl

shitlord
293
2
I am not convinced that they are sufficiently committed to making a great EQNext game.

At this point, I think that Landmark is going to be the better of the two games because it is resting on the shoulders of VoxelFarm.
Huh? EQNext is resting on Landmark. The better Landmark is the better EQNext can be
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I really don't get the whole removal of "levels" / addition of "tiers" debate. Isn't it just the same exact measurement of time? SoE already did this whole tier thing with EQ2. Even in the original game (all the bs mechanics aside), 1-10 = T1, 1-20 = T2, 21-30 = T3, 31-40 = T4, and 41-50 = T5. Now think about it for a second because yes, there were still levels but everything else about the tier system were identical. You were geographically locked out of higher tiers, all gear was locked to your appropriate "tier" (or lower), your spells / abilities were all according to your "tier". Each tier progressively just added +gooder stats, ability, and power.

To me, it just seems like the same old tiering locks but instead of levels as the unit of measure, its gear... and lets be honest, it all just meanstime investment.

Same old same old.
You can break anything down to just pressing buttons and getting some kind of feedback. The issue here is you are glancing over all the nuance and design of different attempts. Before WOW came out, you could of just said "aren't you just grinding mobs anyway? Want's the whole point of quests?" Obviously disguising mob grinding with a task oriented system made the game a million times more successful. That's not debatable at all. Obviously it's not the only reason, but it is a core point.

So let's take that a step further. Every single game out there now (with the exception of TSW but they still do it anyway in a different fashion) starts you off at level 1. SWTOR, Rift, EQ1&2, WOW, GW2, TERA, Archeage, Wildstar. They all do it. The game, from a design point of view, is broken into two halves. We all know this, but let's break it down for argument sake.

The first half is a linear quest path that generally consists of collecting tasks and finishing them. Each of the games above does this in different ways. EQ1 has you going from spot to spot in a linear fashion grinding mobs. GW2 has you going through a progression of completing zones and doing hearts. SWTOR and Wildstar have you following a plot line through a zone, completing tasks along the way. However, in each case you have a zone specifically designed for a tight level range, content is gated inside that range by a specific level restriction. Once you finish that level range, you are done with that area forever. The lower the level, the faster it's consumed.

Obviously each game has other activities that you can pepper in to make it less monotonous. Some games you can grind mobs instead where it's more efficient, or dungeons, or battlegrounds. But in the end, the vast majority of players that play the game, follow the designed quest route.

The second half is a game where your level is based on the totality of your gear. The game then becomes you running through various dungeons, instanced or otherwise, with various amounts of people.

A Tiered system breaks down that dichotomy. Everyone here basically rushes through the first half (which consists of 90% of the developed content) in a few days of playing and spends the rest of the time playing the game in the second half. So why create a game that caters to the portion of the game you spend the least amount of time on? Why not create a game where each tier is essentially "the end game". Do you not have the most amount of fun collecting gear and beating big bad guys? Why not make a game solely based on that?

So you take away the grind of leveling up, and just stick everyone in that first tier of end game. Just hope the people designing the game are smart enough and good enough to make sure there is a path to follow in the game that isn't rigid like a linear quest path. Unfortunately I don't think there is enough creative people in the industry to do that. The majority of MMO devs aren't smart enough to create a complicated system, and just default to what they've seen for 15 years. We just need people who can create open world maps and dungeons like Zelda (any of them but 2) or any of the Dark Souls, or any of the GTA maps.
 

Archdruid Archeron

the Site Surgeon
<Granularity Engineer>
579
2,288
Huh? EQNext is resting on Landmark. The better Landmark is the better EQNext can be
Yes, the underlying engine built for Landmark is going to be used for EQN which eases the development timeline and cost. Yes, they are making use of third party systems like VoxelFarm and StoryBricks to further reduce cost. That said, the key to EQN is making it FUN in its own right and it isn't obvious to me that they have invested sufficiently in FUN and may be overly focused on efficiency and the "snake eating its own tail" cleverness of using Landmark to build EQN. There are some pieces of the right ideas here and the real question is "Can they put all of these pieces together into something FUN?".

My previous post is my observation that Landmark is currently more FUN for the type of game that it is meant to be than EQN has shown for the type of game that it is meant to be. The approach for building Landmark creates lots of opportunities for Landmark to be fun, but it isn't obvious how EQN is coming together to be fun.