EQ Never

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
Assuming they are even using a gold system (I'd be fine without one) ...You can't have droppable items and an AH - that or you have to set a limit on shit you can put it up for. Diablo is the perfect example of Auction House gone bad. It's the exact same scenario Flank just described.

I'm fine with either, but having both is silly, unless it's just mediocre shit you can drop, such at pots/inferior items/profession mats.

Why not bring a barter system to the table? Who gives a shit about currency anymore. Put an item up on an auction house and set a price for another item or a few pieces of crafting mats. Make it a form of trading, but on a much larger scale.
 

Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
1,125
3,818
Diablo II was a barter community and very heavy on RMT's, gold was only used for gambling. Because you could generate so much gold so quickly AND there was a pretty easy to hit gold cap per player, it became next to worthless. If there had been no gold cap people might have actually used it to buy and sell items, it just would have cost 20 billion gold for the rare stuff. But the gold was cumbersome and you had to keep depositing it to prevent losing half of it. where as you would never lose your inventory unless you were silly and didn't just exit and reenter a game to recover your stuff.

A barter system is kinda interesting and gives more of a chance to haggle. And some people can just trade up all day long and generate wealth out of getting the longer end of the stick over and over, but the market will still adjust itself to some constant. SOJ's were it for a long time, so instead of buying and selling for 1,000,000,000 wealth units you bought and sold for 1.0 or 2.0 wealth units.


I could see that I suppose. iirc when I played D&D years ago our GM had this rule about not allowing you to wear more than 2 magic rings and one regular piece of magic armor because of a conflict of magic or something like that. I mean otherwise you'd be running around with 10 magic rings and all sorts of craziness.

Maybe not have so much restriction on magic items, but have wearing too much magic armor cause bad things to happen. That way it wouldn't be a hard limit but a risk players can choose to take.
Yeah, the cap I was thinking of was a soft one based on risk. Since normal items are provided for cheap by your class quartermaster, losing them is not really a big deal. Anything that isn't standard issue however would be costly or difficult to replace.

So you give the players the ability to lock down certain slots. These slots will not be lost on death, everything else gets dropped on the corpse and is lootable by anyone including npc's. The number of lockable slots goes up with rank. I was thinking top end would have 1/2 of all slots locked down.

So a person playing it safe puts really nice items in their locked down slots and then uses standard issue gear for the rest. They COULD go all magic/rare gear, but the moment they die, anything not locked down gets lost. Of course if they have allies right there they could pick up the gear for them, but chances are if you died while wearing all that awesome gear, your buddies are not far behind. So it's still a gamble.
 

Laerazi_sl

shitlord
293
2
Is this game even in alpha yet? PM would be appreciated as I don't really follow this game much after how many years since I've been anticipating it.
They just started the "new" version of this game sometime after Fanfaire 2011, so.. it's gonna be a while before we see anything concrete (assuming they don't start over a 4th time).
 

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,463
You can make all items transferable between players and not have a huge RMT crisis, if every item is easy to obtain and adds little to the character. This of course makes for some pretty bland itemization.]
RMT Crisis = chink farmers running all over your game with stolen accounts or accounts bought with stolen CCs, killing your paying customers over loot (lineage 2) so they can sell money to the players who they didn't drive out.

Someone selling a cloak of flames on pa.com - not a fucking crisis.
 

Furry

WoW Office
<Gold Donor>
19,721
24,985
In my opinion, the reason that soulbound items became popular was to reduce the effects of RMT. I really dislike games that bind items, but all the games that do not bind items need to do more to ban gold buyers. I am no lawyer though, so I do not know if this is possible.
so fucking what? People still RMT the shit out of games. The biggest difference between wow and old eq is you were ABLE TO TELL that they were an ebaylord. Someone has a shitton of sweet gear but no guild to go with and you have no idea who they are? Fucker probably bought all that crap and doesn't know what to do with it. Its a sandbox game, so hes going to be playing with the same people in the same situations again in the future if he's good, and nobody is going to want him around if he's bad. Putting weird limits on lots of stuff just annoys players at the cost of cutting down on something that shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
The biggest difference between wow and old eq is you were ABLE TO TELL that they were an ebaylord.
Or they knew someone at SoE which was pretty common.

The thing about WoW vs. EQ is that WoW is a commodities market whereas EQ was more of a rarities market, if that makes any sense. In WoW the bulk of trades are in terms of raw materials. You ask anyone where the money is and it's going to be in farming bronze, linen, etc...get the gathering skills as that's where the money is. I made millions of gold in WoW just buying/selling/transmuting gems and ore. Sure sometimes you land that rare pet or recipe that's worth a couple hundred k or something but the people raking it in hand over fist are the ones who know how to buy materials low and sell high.

In EQ the market was much different. Very few people made a huge profit selling ore and skins. We were all such fucking jews we'd rather farm common stuff like that ourselves. What sold were the rare items like fungi tunics and manastones that other people couldn't get because it was perma-camped. I made my cash farming the only burning affliction item you could get without raiding and selling it for 1 million pp to the non-raiding necro's and druids.

Both kinda work too, but you have to know the market for what it is. The market price for the shit I was selling in WoW didn't fluctuate as much as one might think.

RMT is going to happen no matter what you do. It's a fact of life. I think WoW did it the right way. The really valuable one off items are so ridiculously rare and uncampable that it's not worth the rang rangs time to sit there and farm it. Instead they farm raw tradeskill materials but the sheer volume of people doing that keeps the market relatively stable.

It may seem a little less vibrant and less interesting then the EQ market, but the EQ market was a product of it's time. It would be very hard to recreate without driving away subscribers.
 

Furry

WoW Office
<Gold Donor>
19,721
24,985
Or they knew someone at SoE which was pretty common.

The thing about WoW vs. EQ is that WoW is a commodities market whereas EQ was more of a rarities market, if that makes any sense. In WoW the bulk of trades are in terms of raw materials. You ask anyone where the money is and it's going to be in farming bronze, linen, etc...get the gathering skills as that's where the money is. I made millions of gold in WoW just buying/selling/transmuting gems and ore. Sure sometimes you land that rare pet or recipe that's worth a couple hundred k or something but the people raking it in hand over fist are the ones who know how to buy materials low and sell high.

In EQ the market was much different. Very few people made a huge profit selling ore and skins. We were all such fucking jews we'd rather farm common stuff like that ourselves. What sold were the rare items like fungi tunics and manastones that other people couldn't get because it was perma-camped. I made my cash farming the only burning affliction item you could get without raiding and selling it for 1 million pp to the non-raiding necro's and druids.

Both kinda work too, but you have to know the market for what it is. The market price for the shit I was selling in WoW didn't fluctuate as much as one might think.

RMT is going to happen no matter what you do. It's a fact of life. I think WoW did it the right way. The really valuable one off items are so ridiculously rare and uncampable that it's not worth the rang rangs time to sit there and farm it. Instead they farm raw tradeskill materials but the sheer volume of people doing that keeps the market relatively stable.

It may seem a little less vibrant and less interesting then the EQ market, but the EQ market was a product of it's time. It would be very hard to recreate without driving away subscribers.
I agree with all of your reasoning, and that was my point. What I dont agree with is your conclusion. Why would this drive away customers to have nice items droppable? I believe there is absolutely positively no proof what so ever that is the case. The only reasonable proof based argument you can make is an over-inflation of items since they never leave the market.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
There's no reason you can't have nice items be droppable. My conclusion is that you can't really make droppable items the cornerstone of the market like it was in EQ without causing a botting epidemic or bringing back some really shady/bad game mechanics like cock blocking, spawn camping and so forth. Mechanics that are too easily exploitable now that we're not as 'naive' a community as we were at EQ's inception.
 
1,678
149
There's no reason you can't have nice items be droppable. My conclusion is that you can't really make droppable items the cornerstone of the market like it was in EQ without causing a botting epidemic or bringing back some really shady/bad game mechanics like cock blocking, spawn camping and so forth. Mechanics that are too easily exploitable now that we're not as 'naive' a community as we were at EQ's inception.
I think there are elegant solutions to those things though. For example you should never be able to win a fight with a bot because fights should be dynamic. If you can win any fight by just spamming the same routine, then I don't even want to play it anyway. I want random stuff, like the mob casts a spell that reflects all spell damage for the next 5 seconds. And then it teleports behind you and starts hitting you on the head. And then it tries to ice comet you etc. The player should have to react to all this, cast a stun to prevent the ice comet, move out the way when it teleports on top of you, stop casting nukes when it gets the reflect up etc. It's basic shit but most games still aren't very good with this kind of thing. Yet.

As for cock blocking, there should just be no bottlenecks. EQ was so small. It was designed to be hugely popular with 10,000 players or something. It ended up being hugely more popular than they ever expected. It's that which caused the issues of things like the FBSS being the one and only good haste item, and the Ykesha being the one and only good 1 hander, etc.. All you need to do is design a bigger world with more of these things, and nobody can cock block anything of significance, because you just go somewhere else.

And spawn camping, yeah well there could be solutions to that too (maybe the mob gets harder and harder each time it respawns and is engaged by the same player). But really, I don't see something like that as an issue anyway. If someone wants to spend their entire weekend farming an item so he can wear one, give one to a buddy, and then sell a few more for cash, then so be it. That's what the game should be all about. It's no problem to me. It's only really a problem if again, that item happens to be the one and only good item of its kind, or if it can be farmed by a bot like those flying afk assholes in Shadowbane. Or if some asshole guild has people show up on rotation so that they 'claim' a key spot for weeks on end. But that wont happen with dynamic battles and a bigger world.

I think Vanguard already solved a lot of that stuff. But unfortunately they took the solutions too far imo. For example it ended up with a nice big world so nothing could be cock blocked or troll farmed, but unfortunately loot was boring and there were must-have items worth farming anyway.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,898
13,412
I think there are elegant solutions to those things though. For example you should never be able to win a fight with a bot because fights should be dynamic. If you can win any fight by just spamming the same routine, then I don't even want to play it anyway. I want random stuff, like the mob casts a spell that reflects all spell damage for the next 5 seconds. And then it teleports behind you and starts hitting you on the head. And then it tries to ice comet you etc. The player should have to react to all this, cast a stun to prevent the ice comet, move out the way when it teleports on top of you, stop casting nukes when it gets the reflect up etc. It's basic shit but most games still aren't very good with this kind of thing. Yet.
None of those things are going to stop a bot because all of those skills get written to a combat log. All the bot has to do is read the combat log to see when the mob casts teleport and turn the fuck around.

The way Wildstar is doing it could actually be a solution though we are all laughing that shit off because of the way it was presented (ground breaking never before seen combat). But the idea is because they telegraph the skills with red highlighted areas on the ground they can randomize where the skills land instead of having to have a set place skills always land when cast which is what an emote/combat log system is handcuffed to.
 
1,678
149
None of those things are going to stop a bot because all of those skills get written to a combat log. All the bot has to do is read the combat log to see when the mob casts teleport and turn the fuck around.
It doesn't have to be written to the combat log. There doesn't even need to be a combat log at all... think outside of the fucking box for once. And TSW already had that wildstar stuff ages ago. You can only bot combat in dumb ez mode games with crappy combat.

there's a reason mmos haven't implemented that kind of combat system. it would be a logistical nightmare.
No, there are MMO's that already do this stuff. In fact EQ had similar stuff 10 years ago. Even with the current technology in games, the scope for challenging and dangerous combat is amazing.
 

Flank_sl

shitlord
499
0
You do not need a combat log. The data has to be sent to the client and the bot program can just access it from your computer's memory. Bot programs are not just macros. A good bot program can do things that a player cannot, so as see further into the distance, see through walls etc. The program is not restrained by only having the information that the player gets on screen, it can get all of the information that is sent to the client.

Even Blizzard does not stop this. They upate Warden every now and then and catch a few botters, but then the makers of the program just analyse the new Warden update and adjust their program accordingly.
 
1,678
149
Bots can't think. All you need is an encounter that requires thought. If a mob nukes you so hard that you have to hide behind a wall or tree or something, a bot wouldn't know where to go. etc
 

Valos

Golden Knight of the Realm
604
13
Bots can't think. All you need is an encounter that requires thought. If a mob nukes you so hard that you have to hide behind a wall or tree or something, a bot wouldn't know where to go. etc
A huge monster prepares to deep breath!

{if deep breath}
- move to location 564,664
--reference mpath

Have you not played any modern MMO? Scripts and bots are not just find target, kill target.
 

Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,463
A huge monster prepares to deep breath!

{if deep breath}
- move to location 564,664
--reference mpath

Have you not played any modern MMO? Scripts and bots are not just find target, kill target.
And what do you do when the monster doesn't give you a HUGE text hint what it's about to do that the bot script reads out to initiate the proper reaction?
 

Valos

Golden Knight of the Realm
604
13
And what do you do when the monster doesn't give you a HUGE text hint what it's about to do that the bot script reads out to initiate the proper reaction?
Visual queues are scriptable as well. Summoning a giant metor? Has to show it somewhere, something has changed, pixels are different colors, that is all recognizable by the right scripts/bot.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
I think there are elegant solutions
What you basically just described was a materials market. If you make the rarities such a pain in the ass to acquire that it's simply not worth it outside of collectors and the lucky...then the bots/rangrangs will farm raw mats that sell well in bulk.

One thing to also consider is that a large portion of RMT is in the buying and selling of just raw currency. Even if you removed droppable items from the game completely you'd still have rang rangs buying gold from people who are a couple bucks short on paying the rent this month and then selling it to someone who wants the new mount that sells for more gold then he's willing to farm/wait for.

You can't really stop RMT. You can just mitigate the effects it has on your game.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
rrr_img_6452.jpg

biggrin.png