EQ Never

tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Abefroman_sl said:
Suuuuuure. What world do you live in where you go on a first date thinking I sure the fuck hope I don't get sex cause it's not a challenge?
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The issue wasn't whether I want sex on the first date. The issue is what is more satisfying: sex on the first date, or sex after you've been chasing a girl, worth chasing, for a while and finally getting it.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,589
11,907
tad10_sl said:
Putting it another way.

You want to eat the best peanut butter and jelly sandwich in your entire life?

1. Your woman wakes up at 8am to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich (with your favorite peanut butter, jelly and bread).
2. Put the sandwich and a glass of water in the refrigerator.
3. Do NOT eat or drink all day (otherwise known as a fast)
4. At 8pm eat the sandwich and drink the water. It will be the best PB&J sandwich you ever ate in your life, you will enjoy and cherish every bite.
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FTFY
 
Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,871
6,824
Draegan_sl said:
I agree, devs have to make content for people. Where they really fuck up in today's paradigm is they have fast leveling system, yet spend the bulk of their development in the leveling content and their end game is shit. That's not good either, and it's a reason why a lot of games drop off quickly (TOR, RIFT, GW2, TSW).

WOW's current endgame is awful and one of the main reason I don't even attempt (or have a desire to) to play anymore.

What I'm saying, if you actually pay the fuck attention for once, is that the current design of "Leveling -> Heroic Dungeons -> Raiding" is retarded no matter what speed you're playing at. The only way, in my opinion only, it's fun is when the game is new and people are racing for world firsts and doing the content either under geared or under leveled. So if I were making a Level/heroic/raid game I would put cycles or seasons into it where I wipe everyone periodically. That only works if leveling is fast. Think of it as a very very very long game of DOTA/LOL.

The last two games I was engaged in any end game content was GW2 and Rift. Rift's leveling content was boring, but I was engaged in the Raid game for a few tiers and eventually I couldn't take shitty design anymore. GW2's content was bad, but I partially enjoyed the leveling content just because I liked the combat system. The leveling process was actually boring and grueling.

So has leveling content been better than end game content recently? I would say a lot of it's been mediocre for the most part. I would say leveling was more fun in GW2 (there was no end game). I would say TOR's leveling was more fun, but it was still terrible because I couldn't finish it. I would say RIFT's leveling was boring compared to the end game at release. I never played TSW but I heard the leveling was awesome if you played it like a single player game with some multiplayer.
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I think the leveling content of games like GW2 and Rift would be much more fun if it were more challenging. Part of the problem with both of those games is that they just made it too easy to kill the mobs themselves. Which is a separate issue from the leveling speed.

But as to leveling itself. Think how much more fun it would be if Rift and GW2 didn't have standard levels and all that content was important (and challenging). GW2 tried to do that with their deleveling system but they failed, so instead went the easy route with boring dailies and instanced dungeons for +1 gooder loot.

So for that part we do agree. Leveling has been turned into an abortion by the mmo devs. A game without them is probably the best route at this point in time.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Bellringer_sl said:
Wait what, just because your strength is not DPS, it doesn't mean you aren't having fun while kiling shit. Please don't tell me you are one of those DPS chart monsters? There should be way more to combat than just damaging a monster. Look at the EQ shaman/enchanter, Their priorities were to Debuff/Mez/buff/etc. They were so fucking significant and everyone knew it. If DPS charts were on screen, they would be near the bottom. Thats okay. There should be more to combat than just the one dimensional "KILL IT" process.
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I just used the dude's example where your primary goal was Pick Locking and combat stuff was mediocre. I assume he was inferring that your combat skills were secondary in strength to players who had combat skills.

So if you're a pick locker, your dps is worse, or your control is worse, or your healing is worse. Worse to the point where the game essentially scales you out of content outside just picking a lock. I only used DPS because DPS is the most prevalent role in today's game, but you can insert any role into that. Your example assumes that the pick locker is also awesome at CC as well (a combat ability).

It's a simple example, and shouldn't be looked into it for further depth. Can you make something like that work? Yes, but only if your game is primarily not about combat which all these games are.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,589
11,907
Grim1_sl said:
I think the leveling content of games like GW2 and Rift would be much more fun if it were more challenging. Part of the problem with both of those games is that they just made it too easy to kill the mobs themselves. Which is a separate issue from the leveling speed.
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What you're basically asking for is where every mob is like an elite like EQ was. I would actually love that. Monsters should be monsters. You should want to avoid them unless you are prepared to fight.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Grim1_sl said:
I think the leveling content of games like GW2 and Rift would be much more fun if it were more challenging. Part of the problem with both of those games is that they just made it too easy to kill the mobs themselves. Which is a separate issue from the leveling speed.

But as to leveling itself. Think how much more fun it would be if Rift and GW2 didn't have standard levels and all that content was important (and challenging). GW2 tried to do that with their deleveling system but they failed, so instead went the easy route with boring dailies and instanced dungeons for +1 gooder loot.

So for that part we do agree. Leveling has been turned into an abortion by the mmo devs. A game without them is probably the best route at this point in time.
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If you want to start discussing how to make a game without levels, I'm all about that. I thinking levels, as a whole, should go away completely. We can theory craft how to implement character development versus content consumption another day. My current iteration in my head is a combination of the FFXIV Job system and Rift's soul theory mixed with Path of Exiles point allocation map with an achievement based advancement system.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Draegan_sl said:
I agree, devs have to make content for people. Where they really fuck up in today's paradigm is they have fast leveling system, yet spend the bulk of their development in the leveling content and their end game is shit. That's not good either, and it's a reason why a lot of games drop off quickly (TOR, RIFT, GW2, TSW).

WOW's current endgame is awful and one of the main reason I don't even attempt (or have a desire to) to play anymore.

What I'm saying, if you actually pay the fuck attention for once, is that the current design of "Leveling -> Heroic Dungeons -> Raiding" is retarded no matter what speed you're playing at. The only way, in my opinion only, it's fun is when the game is new and people are racing for world firsts and doing the content either under geared or under leveled. So if I were making a Level/heroic/raid game I would put cycles or seasons into it where I wipe everyone periodically. That only works if leveling is fast. Think of it as a very very very long game of DOTA/LOL.

The last two games I was engaged in any end game content was GW2 and Rift. Rift's leveling content was boring, but I was engaged in the Raid game for a few tiers and eventually I couldn't take shitty design anymore. GW2's content was bad, but I partially enjoyed the leveling content just because I liked the combat system. The leveling process was actually boring and grueling.

So has leveling content been better than end game content recently? I would say a lot of it's been mediocre for the most part. I would say leveling was more fun in GW2 (there was no end game). I would say TOR's leveling was more fun, but it was still terrible because I couldn't finish it. I would say RIFT's leveling was boring compared to the end game at release. I never played TSW but I heard the leveling was awesome if you played it like a single player game with some multiplayer.
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I think overall there just needs to be more meat in the middle. I don't want to speak for others but I felt like EQ offered that. The game can be different and offer new things like we all should want. As a player tho.. I want to feel like I'm hanging around long enough in each part of the game to experience it properly.. be it content, economy or tradeskills. I'm aware I can turn off my XP gain and such but that doesn't balance the game around me. There needs to me more pivotal points throughout the game. Players used to make choices that slowed their leveling process but advanced their character like camping a clicky. I want to get back to not really caring about how fast I level but I'm not sure how much of that was just me being a noob or EQ just having the proper amount of content/things to do. It's tough to balance.
 
Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,871
6,824
Draegan_sl said:
If you want to start discussing how to make a game without levels, I'm all about that. I thinking levels, as a whole, should go away completely. We can theory craft how to implement character development versus content consumption another day. My current iteration in my head is a combination of the FFXIV Job system and Rift's soul theory mixed with Path of Exiles point allocation map with an achievement based advancement system.
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Or another option is to just have so many levels that it is impossible to get to max and make all content accessible to everyone with gear/flag/key/ walls instead. Which is really just another way of making levels irrelevant. What many of us who argue for increased leveling time are really asking for is a game where the journey becomes important again. Old EQ managed to do that with their incredibly slow leveling times, but it can be done in other ways also.

The gear/flag/key/stat/achievement/job/etc wall that becomes the new levels would be fine by me and I think many people would enjoy that more. The important thing is to spread those quests out over the whole game world and to make them take time and effort (real challenge) to achieve. Which would in effect be the same thing as a long leveling curve.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Convo_sl said:
I think overall there just needs to be more meat in the middle. I don't want to speak for others but I felt like EQ offered that. The game can be different and offer new things like we all should want. As a player tho.. I want to feel like I'm hanging around long enough in each part of the game to experience it properly.. be it content, economy or tradeskills. I'm aware I can turn off my XP gain and such but that doesn't balance the game around me. There needs to me more pivotal points throughout the game. Players used to make choices that slowed their leveling process but advanced their character like camping a clicky. I want to get back to not really caring about how fast I level but I'm not sure how much of that was just me being a noob or EQ just having the proper amount of content/things to do. It's tough to balance.
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You can't do that today and use levels. You have to dress it up differently if you want to achieve what you're doing. You have to attach character development to achievements in some form. So if you want an awesome ability/soul/job/class/whatever you have to defeat the big bad guy in the zone. In order to progress in the game you need a certain collection of achievement which unlock more content. By unlocking achievements you are rewarded with gear that allows you to survive harder content better. You also get access to different abilities along the way.

You can then tie in special items as drops along the way I suppose. You can do a lot of things.

Then, as the game ages, higher level players can assist new players or alts through old content to speed up their progress and catch up. Killing Big Bad Guy took you all afternoon at release, but Mr Friend can come and help you one shot it and all of the sudden you've made it through.

Devs also can't be scared of people doing this too.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Grim1_sl said:
Or another option is to just have so many levels that it is impossible to get to max and make all content accessible to everyone with gear/flag/key/ walls instead. Which is really just another way of making levels irrelevant. What many of us who argue for increased leveling time are really asking for is a game where the journey becomes important again. Old EQ managed to do that with their incredibly slow leveling times, but it can be done in other ways also.

The gear/flag/key/stat/achievement/job/etc wall that becomes the new levels would be fine by me and I think many people would enjoy that more. The important thing is to spread those quests out over the whole game world and to make them take time and effort (real challenge) to achieve. Which would in effect be the same thing as a long leveling curve.
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Putting infinite levels in front of someone is just going to promote people to get to the level ceiling as fast as possible. It's human nature, it'll always be that way. I mean if you give people 500 levels. People are going to look at it and say, "What the fuck?" Once you start designing something to say "impossible to get max" or "making levels trivial, but we give you a lot of them!" is just bad. If your level becomes trivial, then just stop using them.

If you have to have a number just use completion percentages or something similar.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Even if you take away the numerical leveling system there will still be "levels". There will always be players that are higher level. Whether it be numerically or through some other complex system. It is the same either way, kinda like the tank/heal/control trinity. No matter how you make it, it'll be there in some way.
 
Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,871
6,824
Draegan_sl said:
Putting infinite levels in front of someone is just going to promote people to get to the level ceiling as fast as possible. It's human nature, it'll always be that way. I mean if you give people 500 levels. People are going to look at it and say, "What the fuck?" Once you start designing something to say "impossible to get max" or "making levels trivial, but we give you a lot of them!" is just bad. If your level becomes trivial, then just stop using them.

If you have to have a number just use completion percentages or something similar.
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As long as the levels are basically meaningless then players will quickly adjust to the new paradigm of infinite levels. The problem is that the in the current version of mmo's, levels trump all other factors. Level is more important that gear, stats, etc. It doesn't have to be like that and imo it shouldn't be.

But like I said, it's really just another way of making levels irrelevant. The reason to even have infinite levels would be as more of a joke and a slap in the face of all the Pavlovian gamers who have been trained by endless mmo clones that Level is greater than all.
 
Randin

Randin

Trakanon Raider
1,928
882
mkopec_sl said:
The problem with the shit like lock picking and trap disarming shit is that if you do not have a rogue available then you are screwed. Its a portion of content you cannot do.
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The way I was primarily thinking of it was that the big advantage to having a rogue, in terms of content completion, was that they would be able to open alternate routes through dungeons, ones that require fewer fights to move further into the dungeons. I see that less as creating exclusive content, and more as altering the dynamic of how you approach the content; parties with rogues have greater freedom to choose their fights, avoiding some of the unnecessary ones. Parties without a rogue lose out on this, but the class they have in place of the rogue may give them some other utility to help them through the dungeon.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Bellringer_sl said:
Even if you take away the numerical leveling system there will still be "levels". There will always be players that are higher level. Whether it be numerically or through some other complex system. It is the same either way, kinda like the tank/heal/control trinity. No matter how you make it, it'll be there in some way.
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Of course, you can always break things down to the simplest form. EQ has you grind mobs for levels. WOW had you grind mobs for levels, but it wrapped them up in the form of kill X bears and collect 10 of their asses. That was seen as much more entertaining, because it gave you series of short term goals you could complete and feel "rewarded" by finishing them. The whole system is so old that it lost it's original purpose, and now they just toss 10000s of quests at you and instead of grind mobs for levels, your grinding quests for levels and it's ultimately the same thing.

Time to introduce a new paradigm for assign power levels and advancement to characters.
 
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