EQ Never

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
I disagree that WoW was close to an EQ clone.. Without even breaking it down just look at how the majority of players hit max level. Very large portion were solo questing with some grouping sprinkled in. That's a complete 360 of how you hit max level in EQ. How can that be anything close?
 

Ambiturner

Ssraeszha Raider
16,159
19,761
My fear is that what is deemed "successful" has been redefined thanks to WoW. Back in EQ days 1 Mil subs was amazing...now publishers barely bat an eye at that number. Everyone is so concerned with chasing the proverbial dragon =\
That's not true at all. There hasn't been a game out there that wouldn't have considered 1 million subs past the first couple months a huge success. That's twice as many as Eq has at its peak
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
I think what a lot of devs over look is small immersion breaking things. A few small things changed would make the world feel less like a lobby.
Eg
When teleporting somewhere have a fixed animation of a portal opening and you walking into it. The loading happens during the animation.

Try to fit LFG, Teleporting, accessibility features into the lore. These aren't huge deal breakers but I always feel they are to easily over looked by devs.
 

Slacker242

Lord Nagafen Raider
71
4
That's not true at all. There hasn't been a game out there that wouldn't have considered 1 million subs past the first couple months a huge success. That's twice as many as Eq has at its peak
Disagree on both points. A successful MMO only need to maintain a predetermined profitability. The subscriber number is irrelevant and is only a marketing tool.

You could always reword the quote and say a success in the public eye, but at the end of the day that is also irrelevant to a company maintaining such profitability and again more of a marketing issue.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,878
12,268
If you build it, they will come. By "it" we mean a challenging game that is enjoyable to play and has a true sense of progression and achievement. By "achievement" we do not mean running X instance for the 50th time for 5 points toward a meaningless e-peen score.

Damnit, why do we have to explain what terms actually mean. Oh I know, because the newer generations of MMOs have bastardized them.
 

Droigan

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,632
1,357
I remember being floored with WoW early on how random mobs could drop shit you could use after 5+ years of non-named mobs in EQ being pointless but that novelty wore off fast.
True. I remember first starting up WoW and feeling like every mob was a potential named. Gives it a diabloish feel with a RNG in the background giving you a reason to kill trash beyond the grind quests.

I do not like non spesific gear loot. A level 5 wolf should not drop a level 5 blue BP. Mobs should have spesific loot tables. Seen quite a few mmo developers over the year specify that they dislike this as well, but they keep adding it. I farmed Quillmane for over 80 hours for his cloak. No idea how the spawn timer worked, or if any spesific mob got him to spawn. Had several guild members there at one point killing everything in the zone. Ended up getting it MQed, never saw that cloak drop. To hell with whatever class needed the leggings! Damn easymode epics! Bet it was druids who needed them. They seemed to get their epics at 40.

Problem with having a giant world table of RNG loot is that it takes away from the designed quests too. I did a quest in WoW to get a hammer for my Paladin. It was supposed to be a great upgrade, fun quest, and needed to do a dungeon or two to get it. While doing the quest a random mob dropped an upgrade over the quest item. "Upgrade!!.... yay?". It adds a level of cognitive dissonance by making the effort of getting the quest item worthless. By the time I got my Epic in EQ, I had my 61 air pet which was far superior to the epic, but there has not been a single item in any game that has given me a greater sense of accomplishment. That was only possible due to the difficulty and spesific items required. Quillmane would not even be a memory if EQ had worked like MMOs do today. A stationary NPC tagged to one spesific part of the zone with a short timer on it so people can get their loot. Of course, the Mage Epic quest would be in the quest journal and the "Get quillmanes cloak" objective would be displayed tagging Quillmane to get my drop immediately.
Today items are aquired faster, easier, involves less to no downtime with no chance to get ripped off/kill stolen, and quest spesific mobs nearly always drop the item and quest spesific mobs are rarely ever rare. Everything is better now right? Only thing not fast enough now is the combat, so action oriented combat is becoming the norm too, with loot showers! Spray the loot everywhere from everything!

The feeling that is missing from MMOs is the ability to aquire any sort of feeling towards your items. I felt a bigger sense of gear progression getting my first 8 slot bag in EQ than I did for all the items in WoW. That being said, I never played end game wow, it might change drastically later with epic quests everywhere. But that was the same as the death penalty there. People said it was expensive later on, when you were decked out in purples. Death should not only be a downside for high levels. Death should always be bad. It is death. The Grim Reaper, not a pink teletubby. With no risk comes a very limited sense of reward.

So my biggest wish for EQN. Bring back the risk in risk vs reward, and make the rewards special again. Then once more simple psychology will play its part in favor for the game. I spent 40 hours camping this damned Ancient Colossus, I will be damned if I quite now! 20 hours later. /shout I GOT MY JBOOTS!!!! YAAAY. And it was worth it. Because it had to be. Not like you had just spent that long for nothing. Cognitive dissonance now ties you to an item. The few times you got lucky and got a known rare on the first drop, you felt even better about it. In EQ I aquired quite a few items that I ended up keeping around for nothing but sentimeltal value. Items ended up being more than the stats behind them, often tied to stories about other people because with no instances, where everything could be kill stolen, they rarely were. Most camps for rare items involved sitting with others in line, chatting, getting to know people.

No, that does not mean ever item should be tied to a rare loot table on a rare, slow spawning mob. But some should. The world should contain rares. The rares should be special. And not everything that can be done in the game should be pointed to with a bright yellow !. And at no point should a trash mob at the same level as the quest pop out an upgrade over a quest item that requires dungeon running. When I quit EQ, there were still thousands of undiscovered items. There should be mystery, but it should be solvable. If you read about a story of a giant god of war who drops a blade, you should set out to look for him. Not farm random bosses at equal level, or kill bears in some random zone where it is confirmed that they rarely drop the sword there. You know, because not everyone can do the raid boss, so it should drop for other players too.... NO IT SHOULD NOT!
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
A level 5 wolf should not drop a level 5 blue BP.
Apropos of nothing. I'm wondering if EQ Next will be using the agnostic leveling tech in EQ2's dungeon maker not sure how it works in terms of itemization but would certainly solve the content problem discussed earlier, everyone can access any dungeon of any 'level' for xp and you're just scaled to your group/dungeon.

Imagine a level 30 fighter grouped with a level 50 mage and level 80 healer in a Dungeon Maker layout. During combat, the fighter's taunts and damage are scaled up so that he can keep up with the damage output of the mage. Meanwhile, the healer's heals and cures are scaled down to match the levels of whichever player he or she has targeted. The damage of the enemies is scaled so that when damaging the mage, the fighter isn't flattened, and it does more than tickle the healer. It's a complex choreography that is surprisingly good in its implementation.
@Zehn I'm sorta meh on mob-specific xp. I prefer LOTRO's kill 200 spiders get a socketable 5% damage buff v. spiders. Might work if it wasn't so mob specific but more generic: humanoids, giants, insects, etc. Just odd to plow throw goblins and then encounter an orc and be barely able to hit him.
 

Big_w_powah

Trakanon Raider
1,887
750
Well, I for one miss being "ghetto uber" on my alts (I raided a lot on my main; and got lots of good raid gear).


By ghetto uber I mean the best buyable bazaar gear. My sister was also geared like this.

Granted, I had far too much plat, but it was fun to have my beastlord owning things that similar level SKs got flattened by.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
That's not true at all. There hasn't been a game out there that wouldn't have considered 1 million subs past the first couple months a huge success. That's twice as many as Eq has at its peak
You're easily the worst poster in this thread (and that's saying something) did you even read the post you were replying to? Every word was fact. The only MMOS with 1 million subs in EQ's heyday were Asian games like Lineage.

In any event 500,000 subs is 7.5 million a month (actually a little less assuming 3-month/6-month discounts but whatever, let's call it 7 million). That's 84 million a year which I assure you is a huge success and except for initial starts (e.g. AOW had like 800k at start but that dropped quickly) wasn't really eclipsed by any MMO except WoW until the ftp paradigm became common. And, as we all know, comparing sub numbers to ftp numbers is hard to do because no company I know releases free to pay dollars. I'd be shocked if GW2 with 1 million ftp players was making that kind of money on a yearly basis (possibly except for their first year due to box sales).
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
They old Sub Numbers x Sub Fee = Profits argument. Haven't seen that one in a while.
You want me to figure out the overhead and subtract? That's too complicated and speculative. Or are you suggesting that EQ's subscription model was not enormously profitable for SOE?
 

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
2,750
47
Biggest immersion breaker = a giant Dollar Sign Store button. Hopefully the game has UI skin mods.

Also lots of varied ruleset servers, like no No-Drop gear, and specialized pvp (Racial/faction etc) servers. The shit that no one has done since EQ. Wouldn't mind a Discord style server (I think that was Discord, the death reset you to level 1 server) with a buy in (say, 10 bucks?) that has a ladder and the winner after X amount time gets some cool shit to /claim on their account or whatever. Just different stuff to mix it up.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,382
2,449
I'd be shocked if GW2 with 1 million ftp players was making that kind of money on a yearly basis (possibly except for their first year due to box sales).
I think you would honestly be surprised how much people spend in cash shops. I would even wager it averages out to more then $15 a month. Especially considering todays games that tailor the gameplay to keep pointing players to the cash shop to do or get certain things.

Anyhow doesn't really matter. If we go by this thread, where smed's word is gospel now(and to think just a year ago he was the devil), its guaranteed f2p.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
I think you would honestly be surprised how much people spend in cash shops. I would even wager it averages out to more then $15 a month. Especially considering todays games that tailor the gameplay to keep pointing players to the cash shop to do or get certain things.
You may be right, anecdotally I don't know anyone who spends anything in cash shops.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,382
2,449
You may be right, anecdotally I don't know anyone who spends anything in cash shops.
Bad thing nowadays though is even if you get a sub, it doesn't give you any benefits, since you still get a cash shop that will sell mounts, item skins, bags etc that should just be all rolled into the game if paying a sub.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
27,059
41,448
Some games give you "bucks" to spend in the store if you have sub, like SOE for an example. I think they give you 500 sony bucks per month.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Killing mobs can add XP but that XP is only used to make you better at killing that type of mob. I dislike the concept of just generic XP being tied to generic advancement. Grats you killed enough random shit to get 100k xp, here's +30 hp and some strength. I'd rather 'ding' a level against goblin-kin and now have a 10% chance to behead low health goblins or now find 20% more gold on their corpses.
I don't really see what the benefits of this are.. All it does is segregate people more. Ok guys we have the ogre raid tonight..Ahh fuck 4 of our players don't have their ogre slaying skills high enough. I much prefer the UO system of use a skill and it goes up. It would be a much easier way to 'kind of' implement what you want without creating a shit load of different monster types you have to kill. Unless ofcourse your game revolved around finding rare monsters to kill. Kind of like a Monster hunter?? Then I do see the merits of such a system.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,574
45,202
I think you would honestly be surprised how much people spend in cash shops. I would even wager it averages out to more then $15 a month. Especially considering todays games that tailor the gameplay to keep pointing players to the cash shop to do or get certain things.

Anyhow doesn't really matter. If we go by this thread, where smed's word is gospel now(and to think just a year ago he was the devil), its guaranteed f2p.
I dunno. In GW2, I've been playing the last couple of months(and have had the game since just after release) and have yet to spend anything beyond the box price. Granted, I'm real tempted to buy some extra bank slots, but so far it has cost me far less than 15 bucks a month. It's the best F2P model I've seen so far. EQ's current one is terrible, or at least it was when I was last playing over a year ago. It was far better to just buy gold at the monthly price.