EQ Never

Mughal

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I doubt the current generation of MMO players would stump up $2800 for a BoC or SoD.
Top guild on Clash of Clans (iPad PvP) has spent an aggregate of $200k so far.

Smed has gone on record that 'pay to win' several is not part of the design philosophy. I kinda disagreed when it comes to consumables as was pretty happy with the mana regen and monetization model of Shadow Cities (location based PvP MMO on iOS) which it would give a small advantage at a very small price and could not be abused but it's not the direction where EQN is going.

It would be akin to be able to buy battle pots in WoW without having to farm them. Would you trade that instead of paying $15? You probably would not, but an overwhelming number of users that cannot afford a sub would.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think that's what people are saying tho...why does every game have to be for everyone? Why can't there be a market for niche PVE sandbox with a sub model? The FTP can always be pulled out at a later time if the game is suffering with pop. I think trying to make these games accessible to all is great but the integrity of them have gone to shit bc of it.
 

Mughal

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I think that's what people are saying tho...why does every game have to be for everyone? Why can't there be a market for niche PVE sandbox with a sub model?
Games like EQN are addressed to a massive audience. SOE it's not a niche indie operation.
 

Agenor

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The question is will EQN get creative around the P2W ala SWTOR with their mod gear, or an appearance tab. Look guys it's not P2W, the really cool looking gear is RMT though, but has no stats on it!

As long you can get these sort of things in game I could care less about RMT.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Games like EQN are addressed to a massive audience. SOE it's not a niche indie operation.
You don't need to be indie to be niche. I thinks that's a misperception. Considering all EQN needs to do is stay true to its orignal roots and build from there.

With that said from reading your comments and assuming you really are in the know.. A lot of us with ptw concerns will be happy about the way EQN handles its cash shop. Safe to say?
 

Royal

Connoisseur of Exotic Pictures
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You don't have to be indie to successfully produce a niche game, but you do have to engage in some heavy duty cost containment during development to be able to pull it off. Large game developers tend to leverage their larger pool of resources to achieve success. A small indie studio contains costs out of necessity, hence the higher chance of being able to settle for a niche title.
 
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Smed has gone on record that 'pay to win' several is not part of the design philosophy.
Why would anyone take him on his word though based on his track record? We are not stupid. And it's also pretty laughable when you look at Vanguard which is totally pay to win. I'm not saying this to troll just to make it clear that Smed talks a good game but what he says and what he does is about as far apart as paris hiltons ankles.

It would be akin to be able to buy battle pots in WoW without having to farm them. Would you trade that instead of paying $15? You probably would not, but an overwhelming number of users that cannot afford a sub would.
But none of us really care too much about commercializing the living shit out of other games, just don't do it to EQ. It's like when Hollywood takes some classic movie from the 70's or something and makes a dumb modern remake with dick hole pretty boy actors to make a quick buck. If you want to poop out some disposable popcorn munching summer flick then fine, just don't defile our favorite film series in the process. (Total Recall, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Italian Job, Karate Kid, Dukes of Hazzard, The Wicker Man, etc...etc..etc..)

There is a huge audience out there for MMO's, WoW proved that, and millions of people will love to play your Doll House Online with infinite 'Accessories'. Nobody suggests it's not a good business model, it will be very profitable I'm sure. But please, use it on some other franchise. Don't drag our precious EverQuest down with you. EQ was our Indiana Jones, it's bad enough that we get no new games to suit our niche, but if you parasites drain EQ's name for your quick buck, you are just kicking us while we're down.



You're now targeting a "player"base that doesn't care as much about the game's quality and community richness. I know this because, if SOE was targeting such an audience, we'd all be busy playing EQ2 instead of clinging to the latest EQ classic server.
That quote nails it in just 2 sentences.

Are you talking about the game experience that these people were willing to pay hard earned money to avoid?
I don't think anyone paid for something to avoid content. I actually know a few big shocker RMT people from early EQ. But there were only two main types of RMT'ers in early EQ and they were:
1) Someone who had played for years and levelled up lots of characters, done tradeskills galore, helped newbies and guildmates etc, and actually played more EQ than even big snooty high level assholes who just rushed to the high levels, joined the top raid guild and got swept along on their coat tails to the uber loot. The RMT types that I knew, were people who were as good and experienced at EQ as anyone but were committed to smaller guilds (family style guilds). They ended up buying top end loot because it's just something they never would have been able to attain themselves unless they jumped ship and ditched their guild. But with it, they could actually carry the guild forward even with the smaller numbers.

2) Noob morons who always sucked at EQ and never got to the high levels under their own steam, so bought a level 50 character so they could see what it's like. They became laughing stocks pretty quickly because everyone knew that they were an RMT'er because word spreads faster than a knitting circle and it's also obvious when a well geared level 50 wizard shows up to your group only to ask what Evac means or demand a haste.

I'm sure there are occasional exceptions too, but those were the two main types, and neither of those people are motivated by skipping content because it was no good.
 

Mughal

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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@qwerty

it's not about making a big buck vs a small buck. EQ2 was absolutely slaughtered by WoW and it was decided that there was no space for an EQ3. SOE went from being Lycos in the mid-90s to being the one losing ground to a newer competitor. At the same time other trends came out prominently that players wanted (F2P, sandboxes, ugc etc) and that no AAA MMO studio was considering because of their glacial development cycles or philosophy.

EQN is not about defiling the franchise because EQ is still out there being developed and you can still play it. It's not being Lucas that takes the original Star Wars out of circulation, re-edit it with with bad special effects, re-releases it, makes a wadton of cash, and then declare that they are actually non-canon (guess how I felt about that). I'd say it's more like Final Fantasy games, where they share common design, lore and gameplay but they are not the same games. We all have our favorite one and the one we felt it was terrible.
 

mkopec

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F2P is just a scapegoat for a shitty game. If you make a game that people want to play, they will come by droves, and they will gladly and willingly pay for it.
 

mkopec

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Different genre. Now name a good F2P mmorpg that has more than a few tens of thousands of players, if that.

Just like FPS and SOE's Planetside 1. You soon found yourself asking "WTF am I paying $15 a month for if I can get it free in any of the other shooters?"

MMORPGS need to go back to being living breating worlds with emergent gameplay. Not lobbies with LFD or LFR and a cash shop which the dev concentrates on instead of concentrating on making gameplay better and adding content. Trust me, you make a good game, people will have absolutely no propblem paying the .50c per day. The prolem is we have not seen a truly good game since WoW came out. Its been 12 yrs of shit in this genre.
 

Royal

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I'm sure there are occasional exceptions too, but those were the two main types, and neither of those people are motivated by skipping content because it was no good.
There's a difference between not good and not good enough. It wasn't worth the price of admission that was designed into it as far as they were concerned.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
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The nearest thing it reminds me of, is cheat codes. Did any of you play Quake or Call of Duty 1 or something as a kid? I remember I would play games when I was like 9, and sometimes I would struggle and I would enter a cheat code that gave me infinite gold or invincibility or quad damage or whatever. It was fun for 10 minutes and then the game was dead to you. All the satisfaction you get from earning things yourself, is just gone and the whole experience seems hollow and pointless.

When I play Vanguard, that's how it feels. Yeah I can have nice gear and I see other people flying around on the Ice Drake or whatever, but when you can just buy your way to victory, it all seems like a waste of time. And say what you want about these games, but the bottom line for me at least, is that I've had more fun in the past 3 weeks of EQ Mac than I have in past 6 years of Vanguard, AoC, GW2, TSW, WoW, etc..etc..
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start!
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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F2P is just a scapegoat for a shitty game. If you make a game that people want to play, they will come by droves, and they will gladly and willingly pay for it.
I agree F2P is the last stop for a game built around the sub model. However, a well built non sub MMO actually has far more potential as there are a magnitude higher amount of players who could play the game, and spend the bucks to buy extra content or services.

The MMO sub market, especially in North America, is ruled by the dirty casual. Those are the people who play a few hours a week. Most of them do not sub to WOW 12 months a year, and many won't sub to another game again. However, what they will do is buy a game like Guild Wars 2 and feel comfortable playing it a few times a month, since there is no DMZ or 'subscription wall' that makes the game a crappy deal for them.
 
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@qwerty

it's not about making a big buck vs a small buck.
Yeah it is, business is always about the bottom line. We can say what we want about gaming philosophies but the people who run SOE don't care about all this. They just want to make something that makes as much money as possible. Did you ever play Syndicate in the 90's? A classic on Amiga and PC and everyone I knew who played games back then, had their minds blown by that game. A year or two ago we start hearing about a new Syndicate game is being made, zomg! But wait, 99% of remakes are shit, that's just how the world is. And low and behold, our precious epic from our youth is raped and pillaged by a generic modern FPS.

Why not just make a new franchise for the generic modern fps? Well presumably because the Syndicate name guarantees a certain number of sales and a certain amount of hype from the mainstream gaming websites. Yeah most people will be super pissed off once they actually play it, but by that point they have already bought it, hah hah ho ho. It's like a fast buck scam. The Syndicate name is now soiled, but they made a stack of money and there are plenty of other classics to plunder in the future! Sadly this is a regular thing nowadays, but that's just business. I don't think SOE are above any of this.

EQ2 was absolutely slaughtered by WoW and it was decided that there was no space for an EQ3.
But WoW was a killer product and EQ2 was horrible. It had high system requirements yet weird wonky looking graphics, and gameplay wise there was a list as long as my arm of shortcuts, cost cuttings, and compromises. Only 2 cities, and heavy instancing, little clickies to instantly travel you to places, pets are just glorified dots not real entities, etc..etc..etc.. All that stuff mattered believe it or not. From a personal point of view, I just didn't like the feel of it, it didn't feel anything like EQ and if I was going to play some kiddie MMO, I'd rather just play WoW, simply because it was just a better game.

But my point is that none of this really has anything to do with Everquest. It's to do with SOE's lack of budget and or lack of talent at the time. How they survived all this time, I'm not sure, but whatever, they are still here and now it's time for them to step up. They don't even have all that many options. One is to try to hit it out the park with a safe option, but that's what every other MMO has tried to do for the past several years and many of them have not done very well, even though they designed their games on what seems like sure fire designs (ie: WoW clone). But even the most mindless suited statistics obsessed business drone must be starting to doubt that option at this point? Just how many dozens of smouldering wreckages of wannabe WoW clones does there need to be until the industry starts to look at alternatives?

All I think is that one of the best alternatives, not just from a gamers point of view but from a business point of view, is to revisit EQ properly... It's the game which kickstarted the entire genre, and made SOE in to something noteworthy, and yet even after ~13 years, STILL nobody has revisited it, properly. Vanguard was close, but no cigar.

Bottom line, WoW is basically a different genre to EQ, and the WoW genre is too dominated by WoW itself. EQ is in a genre with barely any competition at all, and it was like crack to some of us, but by tinkering with the design and doing what seems on paper to be 'better', only ends up somehow blandifying the experience. Whether Brad and Co are geniuses, or they just stumbled in to greatness, or somewhere in between, I am convinced that EQ was just one of those stars aligning moments. WoW might have hijacked the limelight but not respecting ole' EQ is a big mistake, and to fully respect EQ you would have to make a modern version of it that wants to keep it as close as possible, not look at every little aspect as something that could or maybe should be changed.

SOE went from being Lycos in the mid-90s to being the one losing ground to a newer competitor. At the same time other trends came out prominently that players wanted (F2P, sandboxes, ugc etc) and that no AAA MMO studio was considering because of their glacial development cycles or philosophy.
It's not really rocket science, SOE are a game developer and for their one big franchise, they delivered a really mediocre product. They could have got away with it too, if it wasn't for those pesky WoW people happening to nail it just at the right place and right time.

But look on the bright side, SOE are glad to even be alive after an ass kicking like that. Now they need to dust themselves off, learn from their mistakes, and become Yahoo! instead of Lycos. Yeah sucks to not be google, but being able to survive and prosper in a niche that actually happens to be a pretty huge niche... is better than trying to take on the big boy and becoming yet another dumb casualty.

EQN is not about defiling the franchise
That remains to be seen and based on SOE's recent direction, I am extremely sceptical. That's not to say I'm a 'hater', I still play Vanguard sometimes, but the pay2win (and don't deny that's what it is) thing provides me with fun only in short bursts. And really, people these days have no shortage of fun in short bursts what with an interweb full of free porn and an endless supply of Need4Spdz and Call of Duties etc. What people would REALLY like though are long term passions, and I only have a few of those. Playing EQ Mac, I settle in to another, and it's very satisfying.

because EQ is still out there being developed and you can still play it.
But that's not EQ. It might be called EQ, but it's like this weird deformed monstrosity, whose life was artificially extended far beyond what is natural, and the result is this wrinkly old drooling mess that can't even remember what it is.

If we want EQ, we have to play some crappy p99 or EQ Mac type server with a population of 12 and a ping of 300 and a constant fear of being shut down at any moment, etc.

It's not being Lucas that takes the original Star Wars out of circulation, re-edit it with with bad special effects, re-releases it, makes a wadton of cash, and then declare that they are actually non-canon (guess how I felt about that). I'd say it's more like Final Fantasy games, where they share common design, lore and gameplay but they are not the same games.
You mean...... like EQ2?

Why do you think EQ2 didn't do so well? Because I'm not sure we would see eye to eye on that, unless your answer is, "It was just kinda lame." EQ3 can VERY easily be kinda lame too, and make no mistake, if it is, it will flop like a dead fish. I do quite like EQ's world and lore, but I wouldn't play it for that. I absolutely need gameplay that's nothing short of brilliant, and the safest way I know of achieving that, is to copy EQ very faithfully. The only other way I know, is to create the game of my dreams, and I'm just not sure anyone would have the balls and the budget to do that. SOE are actually my best shot.. I'm just doubtful they would be bold enough.



tl'dr
p.s. Wine induced ranting ramblings aside, I'm not completely against RMT. I like it from a business point of view, I just think it has nasty habit of harming the 'seriousness' of games and therefore their longevity. I could imagine a dream game where it could work, maybe, but I would feel far safer about making a game that takes a stand against it and goes with another option - even GW2's approach. But really, I look at EQ and I think if it aint broke... don't butcher the hell out of it.