EQ Never

Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,864
6,821
Slyminxy_sl said:
I'm quite certain EverQuest had a lower budget than all those games today where you simply "blast through content".
Click to expand...
I played everquest for years, almost 4 years played on my SK alone, and that was before level 75 was max level. Everyone did, we didn't have a choice, until WoW came along. EQ and WoW (and a couple other minor mmos) were the only games around for a long time, so of course people played them for years.

And the content got chewed through very fast in EQ and the other mmos back then also. I was in a end game raid guild that defeated every expansion right after it came out. Then went on boring farm mode for months because there wasn't anything else to do.

That isn't true anymore. There are scores, maybe hundreds of mmo's to chose from. Some people like vanilla and only eat that every day, but most people prefer variety. When vanilla was all we had, everyone ate only that. Now that there are choices the days of everyone eating only vanilla are over.
 
E

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
Grim1_sl said:
I played everquest for years, almost 4 years played on my SK alone, and that was before level 75 was max level. Everyone did, we didn't have a choice, until WoW came along. EQ and WoW (and a couple other minor mmos) were the only games around for a long time, so of course people played them for years. But the content got chewed through very fast. I was in a end game raid guild that defeated every expansion right after it came out. Then went on boring farm mode for months because there wasn't anything else to do.

That isn't true anymore. There are scores, maybe hundreds of mmo's to chose from. Some people like vanilla and only eat that every day, but most people prefer variety. When vanilla was all we had, everyone ate only that. Now that there are choices the days of everyone eating only vanilla are over.
Click to expand...
if you played a game that you didn't like for 4 years (or like rezz said 350 days played) just because there were no other options then you're either:
A) a liar- and you actually loved playing the game and don't want to admit it.
or
B) absolutely the biggest god damn mother fucking retard that ever lived.
so which one is it?
 
Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,864
6,821
Oh come on. I didn't say I didn't like it. I said there wasn't any where else to go. Reading comprehension ftw.

edit: and yes farm mode was BORING. So I, like almost everyone else in end game raiding guilds, had a lot of "deaths in the family" breaks back then.
 
Rezz

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
etchazz_sl said:
if you played a game that you didn't like for 4 years (or like rezz said 350 days played) just because there were no other options then you're either:
A) a liar- and you actually loved playing the game and don't want to admit it.
or
B) absolutely the biggest god damn mother fucking retard that ever lived.
so which one is it?
Click to expand...
Or you know, Option C) a gamer who enjoys gaming and EQ had the best combination of game-stuff available for the time. When better games with better game stuff came out, you tend to move on.

I know EQ was your first boyfriend and all ma'am, but c'mon. There was a lot of stupid shit that we put up with in order to experience the genre at the time that people simply don't have to put up with today. If they did, they would leave. Which they did, in 2004.
 
Pancreas

Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
1,124
3,818
Rezz_sl said:
I think you are assuming much by saying that people aren't looking for better games when they change titles. Like... I think your assumption is completely wrong and that is that. People left EQ to find a better game that fit their sometimes myopic view of what games "should be" to find greener pastures. If they were happy, they wouldn't leave the games they were in. If people were happy with EQ (even the people who had never experienced pernerf Uqua or Velious pre-everyone with prismatics) they wouldn't have left. So what you are positing, is that people involved in the genre simply have ADD and will try anything because they are nutjobs and that is the final line? It has nothing to do with the search for "better" at all? Eve is a vastly different game from EQ, and a vastly different game from WoW. So what you are saying is that they aren't looking for better experiences in what they personally like, but are simply looking for the next random shiny and could give a shit less if what they find is what they want? That the vast, overwhelming majority of players who populate this genre (including the vast, overwhelming majority of the original EQ 600k) are effectively cats looking for the next laser pen light to follow? I sort of don't think that is true for one second. At all.
Click to expand...
No. I am making a distinction between why people were migrating away from EQ and why people are game hoping today. Grim1 was saying that in the current market people just hop from game to game with only small groups of players staying put for any length of time. He said that this is the market now and developers should cater to this style. Then You brought up the ancient exodus from EQ. Saying that people left because they weren't happy with [insert shitty expansion here] and followed Moses/Furor to the promised land of Loot and Honey that was Vanilla WoW.

I am simply stating that the current migration habits of mmo players has a lot more to do with content consumption rates than grievances and balance issues. People eat these games alive and spit them out in a few weeks. Do I think that this is the market that should be developed for? Fuck no. Making a game with a two week window in mind before you lose your audience will lead to a shitty game that goes for a cash grab shop and zero community or end game. Don't even bother at that point, go make iOS or android games if that is what you are all about.

The genre needs a wake up call, has needed a wake up call, and is currently somewhere between a river of shit and a flood of piss poor design. That is why no one hangs around for long in most places.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Rezz_sl said:
Or you know, Option C) a gamer who enjoys gaming and EQ had the best combination of game-stuff available for the time. When better games with better game stuff came out, you tend to move on.

I know EQ was your first boyfriend and all ma'am, but c'mon. There was a lot of stupid shit that we put up with in order to experience the genre at the time that people simply don't have to put up with today. If they did, they would leave. Which they did, in 2004.
Click to expand...
Which games are better?:)
 
Sparko

Sparko

Silver Knight of the Realm
256
31
etchazz_sl said:
if you played a game that you didn't like for 4 years (or like rezz said 350 days played) just because there were no other options then you're either:
A) a liar- and you actually loved playing the game and don't want to admit it.
or
B) absolutely the biggest god damn mother fucking retard that ever lived.
so which one is it?
Click to expand...
I know myself and I'm sure a lot of others continued to play for the friendships you developed while playing the game. I have friends I met playing EQ that I'm still friends with today. All content aside that is the main reason a lot of people stick with MMO's, they enjoy being a part of something.
 
Lithose

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
Part of the problem is that MMO's are simply pretty mediocre games. Lets be honest, they lose in almost every respect vs single player video games. Their ONE redeeming quality is that they have no equal when it comes to social gaming. The level of drama, competition and cooperation you get in a living world still kicks all other online platforms asses--you just can't get those social features in a BF3 match, or on Xbox live.

Knowing that, it always boggles my mind why every new system put into MMO's always emphasizes the GAME and not the people/World. I mean, I think Blizzard is starting to realize this, hence all their facebook shit. The problem is they take it all out of the world--real names, email addresses (Over characters), ect..By making your social interaction into facebook light, you're still emphasizing the fact that the game you met on is *just a game* and if we look at it as a game, all we see is a shitty version of a single player game.

Now, I'm not saying everything which pushes people toward thegamingaspects of an MMO are bad, but they whole shift toward showing off dungeons and short, McDonald instances has gone too far in one direction. We need a balance of things....Becuase MMO's are just not good enough in terms of gaming to highlight just the game and not the people. If they keep going down that path of "DO DUNGEON OR DAILY GET REWARD INSTANTLY", they will continue this "burn content and move on" mentality, because again, lets face it--your expansion has like a month of actual "game" content to it. They really need to focus on systems that get people to rely on each other and build stable bonds *within the game world*. That doesn't mean forced grouping, or anything draconian but there should be things that push people against each other and in general, yes, even piss them off--it's those emotions which invest people. The more sterile they make these worlds, the less shine they have, because the underlying game is just so weak.

Anyway...All I know is racing through BWL to complete the Torch BEFORE a rival guild could, just to open the fucked AQ gates, was more exciting than even the first time we killed Nag. And I *still*, even years later, get whispered in game about how exciting AQ was by people who never raided--just the whole ritual of he server being part of something was exciting (Even if it was a HUGE cluster fuck and everyone was pissed off). Social experiences are dying in MMO's, and it's a shame--because despite the whines, they are the heart of these games.
 
Rezz

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
Convo_sl said:
Which games are better?:)
Click to expand...
WoW is a strictly better game if you appreciated the "game" part of EQ. If you appreciated the "social" angle of EQ, Facebook is a strictly better game. That's what I am getting at. WoW is EQ done in a better method with more emphasis on the game aspect. It maintains the social angle, but focus is set more on actually playing the game. Shitty early mechanics don't randomly make EQ a better game than anything that has come after it. As a person who has spent a considerable time within the EQ world, I feel I am qualified when I say it is inferior in most respects to modern games. There are specific parts (which I always give credit to. Can't cite the FoHguild.org/forums posts, but I have never championed shit like the two faction system or completely malleable class roles) that EQ still has somewhat near top marks for. But the vast majority of aspects to the game (combat, progression, content) have been improved upon multiple times in successor games.

When it all comes down, you probably fall into the 5-10% of the original EQ's population who really still love that very specific style of gameplay. My point is, and was, that when EQ was in its heyday, people did not have the choices they have today. And the fact we were crammed together in one game instead of 10 created the very unique experience that early EQ enjoyed. At no point was it superior in many people's eyes to the games of today, but at that specific period of time (1999-2004) it really was the only choice that most people could reliably make.

If you loved long camps, there are shitloads of Korean/Asian mmos that can fill your void with constant grinding as the only method of progression. Grinding that, as is always the case in most mmos, is superior in a group setting. Lots of time to chat with random people! If you loved raid encounters that only catered to playtime, Fuck off! EQ has that in spades and nobody but poopsockers want that shit back. Like basement dwelling type "mom, baffroom!" style nonsense. Everyone else wants their progression to at least be somewhat reliant on personal skill or the ability to hang out with skilled players, not what timezone they are in.

Your version of "better" probably falls into the realm of "games nobody wants to make." And that's ok, I'm not belittling your choice. But there are people who claim that EQ had all the answers and it really was fucking terrible in many, many ways that players of today simply can't appreciate. The Emu servers are not EQ servers of olde, nor will they ever be.
 
S

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
you're the same dude who claims the current generation of gamers is smarter. you have very little understanding of psychology and i'm not even sure you're capable of abstract thought. just stop talking about mmos, you simple motherfucker.
 
I

Imprecate

12
0
Community makes an MMO for me. The game could be mediocre and have all of my friends in it, and I will play. The issue with a bunch of random MMOs and a few good ones nowadays is, they are all split up. So, I find myself bouncing between them, then switching back to consoles for a month, then coming back and trying again. It's a never-ending cycle that started when WoW split the EQ population.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
All I really have to add is that I have come to dislike DCUO's f2p model, but it is apparently quite profitable for them. I pretty much expect EQN to use the model.

They seem to have made a business out of selling replay tokens. In game they'll either set drop rates absurdly low or allow loot tables to remain broken for months -- and the community answer is "use replays". I've got a really bad feeling about EQN on that front. Wanna camp the frenzy? Cool! Either do it old EQ style or hey, give us a dollar and we'll pop him for you! Disclaimer: FSS is a 2% drop. We think. It might be 0.2. Math is hard and stuff.

The grind in DCUO is positively korean. I attribute that partially to the f2p model encouraging that.
 
J

jello_sl

shitlord
24
0
Lithose_sl said:
.. Social experiences are dying in MMO's, and it's a shame--because despite the whines, they are the heart of these games.
Click to expand...
Commiseration on interwebs: unfortunately a well supported game that contains meaningful interaction and consequence is not where the money is at. MMO-social lobby games (MMOSLGs, I am coining it!) WoW, current EQ, etc is the safe investment. More power to those who enjoy such games as there will be a plethora of them. I do not see the trend of F2P/market/MMOSLGs ending anytime soon, there is too much money to made from people getting there MMO-lite fix.

Much like any recreational activity, food, sports, music, you can have a superficial experience or put more effort into it learning to appreciate the good and the bad - it's getting deep bro. Nothing against those who enjoy the MMO-lite experience. However I am jaded much like most in this thread, we experienced and appreciated the potential for community interaction in MMORPGs and it is hard to get excited for games that cannot offer it.
 
Chanur

Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
<Gold Donor>
26,615
38,774
All I want is for EQN to not be another collect 10 bear asses and then 4 rabbit tails game.
 
F

Fingz_sl

shitlord
238
0
I could play a game with minecraft graphics as long as the combat was good but most people wouldn't play a game like that. It comes down to personal preference. How big is group you are a member of? The group that want's a game like you do? If you are luck you are in a big group like the "casuals". There must be millions of fucking casuals.
 
Rezz

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
Gotta define "casual" before you make a game for them! Casual appears to be a catch-all term for people who don't agree with terrible mechanics, in many instances. "What, you don't want to spend 36 hours camping a spawn to get it? Pfft, fucking casual!" "What, you don't have time to spend 6 hours raiding insert_zone_here? Pfft, Casual!" "What, you want a game that works the first time you play it and isn't like playing jenga with a mongoloid to install? Pfft! Fucking casual!"

Casual players could be defined as people who play occasionally for variable amounts of time that don't require ingame content timers to dictate when they log in or off. Poopsockers would be people who play for fixed amounts of time that depend on ingame content timers to dictate when they log in and log off.

There you go. I defined casual for you and didn't use profanity in the defining thereof. Basically every game except EQ is casual, by my definition. That doesn't make it right, though. The context in which the word casual is used as a negative needs to be explained in most cases, as most definitions are not the same. Much like the term "hardcore" or "poopsocker" have entirely different meanings depending on what you are talking to or about. Create a game for one group of "hardcore" and you probably won't grab a very large audience as the definition of hardcore changes from person to person. Hardcore players where the defining attribute is the ability to log on at any time? Yeah, that game exists... it is called Everquest. Hardcore that caters to players where individual skill is almost as important as the original coordination of the force fighting the content in question? Yeah that game is called WoW's Hard Modes. Hardcore where ability to put in tons of time is the defining attribute? Insert_asian_grindfest here.

Just pointing out, that we as gamers like to label people based upon our own beliefs, when in reality those beliefs are jaded heavily by our own personal views of what makes a person casual or hardcore. It doesn't make a person casual, in my opinion, if they don't want to spend 8 hours raiding a night. It makes them sane. If the only way to raid is to spend 8 hours a night, that is bad design imo. If a player -wants- to raid 8 hours a night, that is a different animal all together. The ability to and the requirement of are totally different sides to a coin, and the first is imo much more important than the latter.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

<Banned>
1,678
149
They really need to go back to what made EQ so powerful.

I'm super hooked on EQ Mac at the moment. The classes are a inferior to Vanguards etc, and so is the engine etc. so I've been trying to understand why exactly, do I love it so much. But I think it's because of the loot and the way the world works. It's just such a powerful 'hook'. For example even at level 30, I still have some empty slots on my characters, and even the ones that have something in are mostly utter crap. My casters just have trash cloth that they picked up ages ago off a bat or whatever and all it really provides is 1 AC which is basically useless. My tank has a mishmash of raw hide and ringmail or whatever.

Casters can maybe get away with just grinding through the levels, but for some classes it's really worthwhile to take your time and gear up at the same time, and it makes the game incredibly compelling. It's worth spending an afternoon going to do the stein quest because that +10 int/wis is a big deal to anyone. And then spending a few days in Unrest or somewhere to get a nice bunch of bronze armor for the tank is great. Its still nothing special but at least it's plate.

In other games an item a dungeon is uninteresting because you get items all the time anyway. Every quest reward gives you a fancy upgrade and mobs drop them all over the place. But in EQ, the thought of camping just one mob like the Executioner in Lower Guk or something, is really exciting because the item will be a major upgrade for me. I could spend an entire day just doing that, and just getting one item, and yet it would feel like an adventure and I would be satisfied by it. And it adds so much longevity to the game because I have to do that for all 20 or whatever slots, and then 10 levels later I will ideally need to do it again.

I basically feel like I'm getting a lot out of the game, the dungeons and loot and everything that happens is important to me. Unlike other games where dungeons only exist as a temporary stopping point to grind through in a few hours and then its on the next quest hub.

The most interesting thing (to me at least), is that although EQ's way is far better and more fun and more meaningful (to me at least), it's also the easiest to make. Take the barrens or something in WoW, there's dozens of quests in that place, shit loads of dialogue and quest drops and whatever else. In EQ, I can spend 20 something hours just fighting one little group of mobs simply because they give decent XP and drop fine steel swords that sell for nice cash. When I did Upper Guk, I actually just stayed in one hallway and killed all the mobs nearby. There were no quests, not even any nameds. It was just a bunch of 'Trash' mobs but I really enjoyed it because it was scary and felt like a survival mission to hold my ground down there, and made really good XP too. Basically what I'm saying is, it's cheap and easy content and yet its far more fun to me than Vanguard and WoW and AoC and everything else.

In the old days of early EQ people would complain about the grinds and camping, but it was mainly because it's the only complaint they had. And it was also only occasionally that it sucked. For example if you specifically needed a specific item like the Ancient Cyclops ring or something, and because of randomization it just happened to take you 70 hours to get it... that sucks. But rather than fixing this, future games like WoW/Vanguard/etc completely changed everything, and now we have quest grinds which personally I think are even worse. Because although they never reach the lows of 70 hours waiting for one item, they also never reach the highs that you get more often in EQ by camping a named or something in a dungeon which is exciting and challenging and fun.
 
Conefed

Conefed

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,811
1,651
Maps - I understand their usefulness. But part of what made EQ great was getting lost and having to learn your way around. That's the factor that ingrained those zones in your mind and dreams to keep them a part of memory even a decade later.
Dyes - The game went from "oh what is that?" to "It's probably just dyed, why bother"
 
E

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
everyone nowadays gets off on trashing EQ, yet to this day there are a lot of things that EQ got right over a decade ago that no game since has even come close to doing. namely: classes, loot, dungeons, travel, class interdependence, social interaction and even quests (that's right, cause in EQ there wasn't someone holding your dick telling you exactly where to go next and who to talk to).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.