Cinge
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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EQ Never
- Thread starter Convo
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The problem I see with tanks outside of a trinity is basically that you're trading dps for higher survivability. But, if you can't taunt, you need a shitload of crowd control, because the enemy won't be attacking you when wizards, rogues, rangers and whoever else are all doing more damage than you. Extra armor is kind of pointless if the enemy isn't attacking you over the others.
I dont know if it was even smeds fault indirectly. Vanguard got fixed by letting about 4 years pass and hardware speeds increase like 4 fold from what they were when it released. It was so far from being fixable that there was no way to save it.
Cinge
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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iF those telegraphs are anything to go by in that demo, as with most action games, mob attacks are AE(like players). So mob swings his sword in a big arc and anyone in that arc gets hit, or he does some forward charge/slash and its going to hit anyone along that route for a certain distance. It's not a simple "tank stands in front of us". If mobs have spells like that wizard's, they don't stop when they hit a target, they keep moving through along a path. So again, you can't just have a tank "Get in the way". Hell they are not even sure on collision detection, which should be a sure fire thing if they want to back up what they are saying.
Well, what you could have the tank do, or multiple tanks, is have them all spec up a secondary rogue class and use its backstab ability. That way, the tanks would ping pong the boss mob among them while all other dps manage their dps, and that way try and keep agro among the tanks, while everybody else do their jobs, with care taken to not do too much to cause the "smart" ai to go after them. Also recognize that the days of one boss mob fighting 24 players is probably over. Now we always get adds along the way it seems so it'll be managed chaos as different groups switch off to fight the adds or mez or whatever. Just because they're trying to reduce the necessity of the trinty, doesn't mean there still won't be a trinity. We as players will just have to adjust our strategies and that is where the emmergent gameplay will appear. The trinity will rear its head on its own, in some fashion, otherwise the developers will have failed and have just made another GW2.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Basically you'll need (as a tank) to either
Leash: With CC abilities: Stun, Hamstring, Mez or Wall abilities: IceWall
Increase Threat (Hmerly example of Backstab - but backstab will be a weapon skill - so another high damage attack)
Rescue: With Movement abilities: Shadow Step or Defensive abilities: Shield Bubble (around target being attacked).
As I noted earlier, removing taunt means the tank now has to be the most skilled player there or the group will wipe (if the Combat AI doesn't suck), You want a tank with access to the best CC/Threat/Rescue abilities.
Alternatively, other party members can also be trying to leash (root/snare/slow) the mob to help out the tank, and load the tank with offensive abilities.
I think people areseriouslyoverestimating how much freedom we will have with digging. Not just when it comes to dungeons, but in general. Those videos are completely scripted and I have my doubts about being able to just dig big holes anywhere we feel like it. I think that is what they wanted us to believe, but I think in reality it is going to be pretty limited. I hope I'm wrong, but it is SOE we are talking about here and I just don't trust that we are being given a honest look at what the final product will be.
For example, I'll bet that digging holes to deeper layers of a zone can only be done at specific locations. So you can't just dig a deep hole and drop down anywhere. I imagine it is the same with digging through walls. There will probably be lots of destructible stuff, but how much freedom you have with making tunnels is probably extremely limited. So closer to "Dig through this wall for a chest on the other side!", and not so much "Dig through a mountain and find a hidden cave complex!".
Like I said I hope I'm wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that we are letting our imaginations run away with the very little bit of information we were given. The game is likely far more shallow then what we are imagining.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I'll rate as plausible but unlikely. They seemed pretty set on world destructibility outside of towns and special areas; I'll buy them limiting destruction in raid/dungeon areas.
Cinge
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Why bring a tank tad? Just bring another dps with CC and increased threat and kite. If there is no way to force the mob to attack the tank his absorption is useless. The only way I see it work is if they give the tank some way to constantly take his friend's damage.
Drakurii
Golden Baron of the Realm
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Absolutely, tank types might have an important role in offensively and defensively buffing a group or raid. Casting shields that absorb damage or shields that repel and attackers damage onto the attacker. Maybe buffs that will enhance healing in whatever form healing will be done. Movement impairing effects and whatnot. Tanks only job shouldn't just be to take balls to the face all night long.
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I think some of you guys are seriously envisioning combat the wrong way for EverQuest Next.
No one is going to just be sitting there and getting beat on because I suspect that's not how combat is going to work at all. I'm getting the feeling that just about every mob attack is going to be telegraphed and avoidable. They really hammered on the fact that they wanted to make everyone responsible for their own survival. This means paying attention, moving out of the telegraphs, etc. Now some attacks may be instant and unavoidable, which is where a defensive player that can take some hits may come in handy - but only if the damage can't be prevented in some other way (CC, Terrain blocking, etc).
This is how they make skilled players more useful than specific classes. Timmy Casual is an idiot and can't move out of telegraphs, or interrupt enemy abilities - so you don't want to group with him, even if he is a tank.
No one is going to just be sitting there and getting beat on because I suspect that's not how combat is going to work at all. I'm getting the feeling that just about every mob attack is going to be telegraphed and avoidable. They really hammered on the fact that they wanted to make everyone responsible for their own survival. This means paying attention, moving out of the telegraphs, etc. Now some attacks may be instant and unavoidable, which is where a defensive player that can take some hits may come in handy - but only if the damage can't be prevented in some other way (CC, Terrain blocking, etc).
This is how they make skilled players more useful than specific classes. Timmy Casual is an idiot and can't move out of telegraphs, or interrupt enemy abilities - so you don't want to group with him, even if he is a tank.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I'm am pretty sure kiting is not going to be an option, so you're going to need someone who can take hits.
iannis
Musty Nester
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Tuco can make that shit totally legit bro, you don't have to wear rosie's chainmaille bra.
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
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It's not going to be about kiting, it's going to be about avoiding damage. In some group compositions, that could mean kiting, I suppose. But I don't think a mob is going to be sitting there auto attackinganyone. The melee fighters (even the 'tank') are going to be moving around constantly to avoid as much damage as possible (by avoiding telegraphed attacks). And some/most mobs will have some way to reach ranged characters. An Orc for example might leap to or throw their weapon at the player Wizard who just lit them on fire, but there will be a telegraph that gives the Wizard a second or two to move out of the way and avoid the damage.
Maybe some enemy abilities, like an Enemy Wizard'sInferno Wave, have such a big area of effect that the only way to prevent it is through defensive abilities (Warrior Spell Reflect) or through Crowd Control/Interrupts.
Cinge
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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How the hell can anyone be right or wrong at this point? No one knows jack shit.
They're only wrong in your eyes, because it would probably make a horrible game and you are already way too invested by mere PR words.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Well, because what some people are speculating seems to go against what little we do know (which I quoted).
The rest was just my speculation based upon their comments, however.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I think we can be pretty sure that if the AI sucks (combat/npc) the game sucks, if the AI's great, the game will be fun.
That said, I still don't know if I can play an action RPG for more than 6 months w/o carpal tunnel system even if it is fun ;-)