EQ Never

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
If it is quest driven, I hope for the questing system to be rewound a bit. I really enjoy the challenge of classic's NPC interaction for quests. No lame dialogue, silly icons, glittery pathways, or quest journals. We had to figure it out and at times really know the lore. Yes, you could go on forums and websites and work with others to figure some of the more involved quests out, but if you were at the forefront of the the progression curve, it was a true challenge. Sure there were some less difficult quests, but even they and their NPCs are memorable to this day. Jboots, Epics, BiC, Shawl, etc.

Not only were the quests more in depth, but just figuring out where to begin them was a task. No faggot GPS maps showing you right where you have to go. I feel like I can navigate without even looking through my character now a days. Just pull up a map and pac-man your little arrow to your destination. Unfortunately, society in general has become more lazy and inept, so this is probably a lot to ask of them.
GPS maps and Quest Indicators should definitely go away. Neon-Signs blinking *QUEST HERE* *QUEST HERE* detracts from feeling you belong in a world. It's not necessary if the game is not "Quest-Driven", kind of make sense if you're playing WoW (and its clones) but if you're playing a "sandbox style game" there's no need for these.

If I login a game and I find a flashy sign/color above an NPC indicated there's a quest I SHOULD take, I'm logging off and not coming back.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
7,927
9,578
If I login a game and I find a flashy sign/color above an NPC indicated there's a quest I SHOULD take, I'm logging off and not coming back.
I think most modern AAA games will start to take after the GW2-style auto-questing ("I'm in the area, my objectives start counting"), and less the old WOW model.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
I think most modern AAA games will start to take after the GW2-style auto-questing ("I'm in the area, my objectives start counting"), and less the old WOW model.
Which is still bad.
I quit GW 2 the moment I was expected to collect Mushrooms that were "highlighted" for me to pick.

I ask a question... WHY?
Why do I want to pick 6 mushrooms?
Why?

Why is 80% of my time is based on very stupid reasons to play. Why should I kill X creatures and collect X apples? That's it? That's what games should be?

That kind of thing keeps players busy doing retarded errands and not interacting with other players.

I'd rather be given the freedom without any neon-signs or "objectives" but with rich lore in the world and plenty of dungeons to explore (for adventurous players) and of course the options to do other things (outside of exploring and adventuring).

I'm not going to collect 6 mushrooms ever again nor I am going to kill 10 rats just because I'm supposed to. It's over for me.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
Read: It's going to take hours to go from the two furthest points in Antonica, even using druid or wizard shortcuts.
Fast travel needs to go away, especially if all mobs are open world and contested. We don't need 1-2 guilds locking down all the mobs all the time.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
I understand your desire, but, after years of trying, we know that you cannot balance a good PvP with a good PvE.
No one has ever tried to build the systems interdependent on each other. One system was always put in place after another--and at best shared the same stat system, and world. You saying this statement, is tantamount to watching a guy build a house roof first and saying it can't be done because it keeps collapsing. Well, of course, because the house wasn't built to support it yet. It's the same thing with these games, with a world not designed to support both facets, you end up having systems that just weaken the other.

Trying to do half-and-half like you do (literally, as half of your stuff is eternal/unstealable EQ-type PVE looted and half is renewable EVE/UO-type PVP crafted) is going to end up with a weak PVE and a weak PVP.
It's not half and half--you can use a whole suit of crafted, and all mobs will be balanced around that. PvE gives you an augmented edge in PvP, but it's not required for progression. And this is to allow for players to be fluid in terms of which PvE pieces they select, constantly augmenting them as they press the soft cap (The soft cap being in play is another important aspect.)..In some ways, this would be like EVE in terms of every piece has different values as players grow, but with the addition of the PvE gear, you'll add another layer of augmentation, forcing restructering every few levels (If you do your skills right.)...Combine this with the ability to sell old items, and new tiers producing new crafted equipment, and you have a constant churn for the market.

It all leads to constantly needing new gear--yes, there is a limit on this. But that's when you produce an expansion. (Which is how real markets work as well--Think about it, your Iphone 3 doesn't need to magically stop working for you to buy the 4--real markets innovate and that's what new tiers/expansions do.) If you generate new PvE access points and change resource points during these new tiers,you constantly breed conflict. This conflict, in both progression and control, is what produces strong PvE and PvP.


Then, you have of course the WoW question of balancing gear. How much more powerful is the raid gear than non-raid for pvp? Does it give you a real competitive edge in PvP? If it does enough, then you start getting the snowball effect: the guild who gets the lockdown on raid areas gets the raid gear, which makes it better at locking down the raids, and so on. And you end up with an unassailable position for the rich who get richer, and the rest who can't do much about it and say "sod it". So, your raid gear can't be that much more powerful than non-raid, which weaken your position of raid gear being very rare (if it's not powerful, no one cares about it). It literally has to be balanced on knife's edge to be good... and we all know how likely designers are going to get that right, do we?
Yes, it gives you a competitive edge. As for the lock down effects..Understand, again, the entire game is designed around these concepts. So you'd have some core principles in play.

1.) (PVE Snowball effect) Mobs would be difficult in terms of organization and efficiency, not in player skill. We're talking far less scripting and more focus on time investment through clear times, or restricted access. So more gear wouldn't put a lock on progression in PvE.

2.) PvP Snowball effect) Your map would be designed first off to spawn these resources in disparate spaces, making the control of one guild impossible unless they had a massive alliance. In which case you're still foisting all the political drama of guild cooperation on people.

Also, there would be multiple avenues of gear acquisition (Which should hopefully be easier to do as boss design should be much less complex, except for the highest tiers of PvE). The measuring stick would not be who gets the items, but rather who risks the least amount of time to acquire. So you could LFD from town, go to a dungeon with a group and instance it up, but the drop rate on powerful items there would require more repetition than the drop rate in a community dungeon. ALSO the items acquired in instanced zones, would be BoP decreasing their overall value (BUT access would be there to prevent snowballing). Community dungeons would be fully tradeable with higher drop rates BUT there would be the obvious restriction on access due to limited supply (But these wouldn't be able to be locked down--again, prevent snowballing). And finally PvP controlled dungeons would have the highest drops, but the most difficult access limitations. (And as you can see, there are a lot of access points...Which leads to 2A)

2A.) There would be no hard coded access restriction on said PvP dungeons, either. The advantage for the guild/faction controlling the land would be things like resurrection proximity, less downtime (Due to higher stats on res) and other advantages. In other words, it would be a translation of "reinforcements" being closer thanks to control. But a good group could still access and hold the dungeon if no one from the controlling guild calls it into conflict. (Resources wouldn't be under this system--for a variety of reasons but this post is going to be long.) This goes back to what I said above, by distributing these and creating multiple tiered access points, with varying time rewards, you create situations where no guild is going to lock this down without a significant portion of the server supporting them--and that's a win from a design perspective anyway, because it breeds drama.

So, again, if you design this system from the ground up--with EVERY system in the game interdependent on it, to "breed" either conflict or cooperation, you can end up with systems that eliminate your scenarios.

The problem is, games aren't designed with this in mind. Games are designed very compartmentalized. PvP is designed for PvPers, PvE for people who PvE...And I have no doubt that's done because their test groups and surveys find that people don't mingle. But if a game were designed from the ground up so the world was interconnected, then you should be able to create the need for systems where people who PvE at least form alliances and friendships with those who PvP--and this is what I'm talking about with ritual involvement.

We've constantly been moving away from that in the MMO genre. Heck, most people don't even realize how "subtle" systems like soulbinding have massive effects on our perception of the world, and our ability to interconnect with others. All these systems (Like soulbinding) were developed to tackle problems born our of fractionate systems where each corner of the game was developed for specific player types. We need to go back, design a game for everyone and then build systems to accommodate that. We wouldn't even know what those systems look like right now, because there has never been a game designed like this. And until you do that, there is no telling what will fail or won't.
 

Vonador_sl

shitlord
44
0
I quit GW 2 the moment I was expected to collect Mushrooms that were "highlighted" for me to pick.

I ask a question... WHY?
Why do I want to pick 6 mushrooms?
Why?

Why is 80% of my time is based on very stupid reasons to play. Why should I kill X creatures and collect X apples? That's it? That's what games should be?

That kind of thing keeps players busy doing retarded errands and not interacting with other players.
Good news for you, then! If Smedley is to actually be believed and what SOE is developing is actually a sandbox-style game, that's the kind of errand that has no requisite place in a sandbox. I'm sure there will beoptionsto do that silly kind of stuff, just because EQN will need to bridge some sort of gap between the WoW babies and their game. I highly doubt that sort of thing will be required in any capacity, though.

Also, good news on the player interaction front! That's what sandboxes are all about; they thrive on player-orchestrated content. I don't think it's a huge stretch to envision that kind of gameplay necessitating communication between...oh my goodness,strangers?! Why, I haven't beenforcedto meet new people in an MMO since, well, EQ!

I'm hopeful. So long as Smedley understands what it means to push a sandbox-style game, I'm hopeful.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Anything is better than a Quest-Driven MMORPG.

But too bad, you'd think EverQuest sequels would play like their predecessor. I know I have an urge to play something 90% like EverQuest Classic. There is a market for that. They could have implemented the Sandbox idea in another IP or a brand new one.

Anyway like I said, anything is better than a game that looks and plays exactly like World of Warcraft.
That's how I felt. It sounds like they were building something like that but decided what they have now is even better? I'm ok if it doesn't play just like the original but I think it should have the same feel. If that's even possible. I don't expect to be able to quad with my Wizard(I wish I could) but I do expect the open world dungeons, similar travel, unique classes and items, etc... from the early days of EQ.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Good news for you, then! If Smedley is to actually be believed and what SOE is developing is actually a sandbox-style game, that's the kind of errand that has no requisite place in a sandbox. I'm sure there will beoptionsto do that silly kind of stuff, just because EQN will need to bridge some sort of gap between the WoW babies and their game. I highly doubt that sort of thing will be required in any capacity, though.

Also, good news on the player interaction front! That's what sandboxes are all about; they thrive on player-orchestrated content. I don't think it's a huge stretch to envision that kind of gameplay necessitating communication between...oh my goodness,strangers?! Why, I haven't beenforcedto meet new people in an MMO since, well, EQ!

I'm hopeful. So long as Smedley understands what it means to push a sandbox-style game, I'm hopeful.
The quest in EQN should make sense and develop over time. If there is a town that is being threatened by a local bandit camp, that town will obviously need some help. Once the number of the bandits have dwindled then the quest should no longer become available. Maybe in the future there will be a different threat to the camp or the bandits will reorganize over time but the key is for players to have different experiences when they come across the town. The world should be ever changing based on what players are doing. Thinks unchecked will grow in power and possibly lead to rare boss or raid boss.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
The quest in EQN should make sense and develop over time. If there is a town that is being threatened by a local bandit camp, that town will obviously need some help. Once the number of the bandits have dwindled then the quest should no longer become available. Maybe in the future there will be a different threat to the camp or the bandits will reorganize over time but the key is for players to have different experiences when they come across the town. The world should be ever changing based on what players are doing. Thinks unchecked will grow in power and possibly lead to rare boss or raid boss.
Some of those mechanics would have to happen rapidly though. If we kill a lot of bears, and the rabbit population grows larger, it can't take weeks for the bears to respawn. That wouldn't be practical. Speaking from a gaming perspective of course.
 

Railin_sl

shitlord
33
0
GPS maps and Quest Indicators should definitely go away. Neon-Signs blinking *QUEST HERE* *QUEST HERE* detracts from feeling you belong in a world. It's not necessary if the game is not "Quest-Driven", kind of make sense if you're playing WoW (and its clones) but if you're playing a "sandbox style game" there's no need for these.

If I login a game and I find a flashy sign/color above an NPC indicated there's a quest I SHOULD take, I'm logging off and not coming back.
Agree, when I went from everquest over to wow, had a little daoc in between. I was set on my everquest ways of leveling. I said fuck this mindless quest bullshit, im going out and exploring the zones and killing shit as I go, perhaps set up camp at a good spot with a lot of mobs that are easier to kill... Then I soon realize im leveling slow as fuck and im not getting any gear at all... Meanwhile everyone mindless quest grinding are getting the cookie cutter bullshit gear everyone else is getting and leveling faster. In turn forces me to have to do the same thing to compete... I dealt with it because that's what needed to be done..

I played wow for 6 years, I played other games as they came out, all had this mindless quest chain bullshit... Now, im way over it. It has gotten old, and I hope there will be a game that goes away from that bullshit and back to EQ style... Quests should mean something, they should be hard like in eq.. Epic quests, for example... Not everyone go do this dumb fucking chain quest that takes you 30 minutes and get a blue sword! My most memorable quest was getting my greenmist on my iksar sk... Now that was a god damn quest!!
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Some of those mechanics would have to happen rapidly though. If we kill a lot of bears, and the rabbit population grows larger, it can't take weeks for the bears to respawn. That wouldn't be practical. Speaking from a gaming perspective of course.
I'm not saying months or anything but in today's games a few days might even be enough. Just something to give the world a feel of always changing. Not that it would be an easy thing to cut down on a population of a particular mob.
 

Vonador_sl

shitlord
44
0
The problem is, games aren't designed with this in mind. Games are designed very compartmentalized. PvP is designed for PvPers, PvE for people who PvE...And I have no doubt that's done because their test groups and surveys find that people don't mingle. But if a game were designed from the ground up so the world was interconnected, then you should be able to create the need for systems where people who PvE at least form alliances and friendships with those who PvP--and this is what I'm talking about with ritual involvement.
I think this is an understated point that most don't realize; it's very easy to have both PvP and PvE interdependent on one another, so long as the developers allow it. There don't need to be stupid statistics like resilience that change our perception of what gear is for which play style; everything can have an underlying purpose, for all activities. People have been so pigeon-holed into the line of thinking that both must be separate entities, and therefore balance of one ruins the other. I don't blame people, though, because MMO's have been depressingly vanilla in their presentation of the PvE-PvP formula. Even GW2, which many vaunt for its quality PvP (and it does have good PvP) has two PvP options, one which uses levels and items earned from the world, and another that separates the worlds entirely. Literally, one could be a level 2 thief and be the best closed-world PvP player in the game.

Have time spent in the game be beneficial to the character as a whole. With an innovative enough design, there's no reason PvP and PvE can't coexist, or - dare I say - mutually benefit from each system's presence to create a more exciting, risk-oriented game experience.
 

Diazepane_sl

shitlord
484
0
Fuck Sony.

The shit quality of their games are starting to rival that of those lame ass games you see banner ads for but never dream of playing.

They're pretty close to developing their way into the browser-based market, which is pretty embarrassing if you ask me.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Fuck Sony.

The shit quality of their games are starting to rival that of those lame ass games you see banner ads for but never dream of playing.

They're pretty close to developing their way into the browser-based market, which is pretty embarrassing if you ask me.
Guessing you didnt like PS2?
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
Which is still bad.
I quit GW 2 the moment I was expected to collect Mushrooms that were "highlighted" for me to pick.

I ask a question... WHY?
Why do I want to pick 6 mushrooms?
Why?

Why is 80% of my time is based on very stupid reasons to play. Why should I kill X creatures and collect X apples? That's it? That's what games should be?

That kind of thing keeps players busy doing retarded errands and not interacting with other players.

I'd rather be given the freedom without any neon-signs or "objectives" but with rich lore in the world and plenty of dungeons to explore (for adventurous players) and of course the options to do other things (outside of exploring and adventuring).

I'm not going to collect 6 mushrooms ever again nor I am going to kill 10 rats just because I'm supposed to. It's over for me.
I agree this design is lacking, but like Democracy it is the best we have currently for most players. If I have one hour to play and want to do something, this is a good way to offer me something. Simplified questing definitely isn't great, or as good as a world raid or a fine balanced group in a new scary dungeon, but if it gives a player one of many things to do then it's good, in my opinion. The other issue is the amount of content in MMOs.

My biggest gripe is that we keep recycling game devs with the same fucking MMO design documents with only slight variations without heavy real change. I enjoy GW2 but it's design document is the same level, quest, PVP one we've seen for the last 10 years. Likewise for SWTOR. Outside of EVE, the only game that was slightly different was SWG and for some reason the asshats changed it to be more like the other lemming games.

PS2 is a good game but there is not exactly a ton to do there. It is an especially mediocre experience for someone who is casual. It's more akin to TF2 than an MMO to me.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
7,927
9,578
We wouldn't even know what those systems look like right now, because there has never been a game designed like this. And until you do that, there is no telling what will fail or won't.
Well, actually, we've seen a game designed a bit like this. You see, factions duking it out in pvp for the control of a dungeon with raid and specific loot and all that... this has been done before. Twelve years ago. It was called Darkness Falls in the venerable Dark Age of Camelot (which is a game that I resubbed twice after dropping out. Almost as much as EQ). And it was considered a big success at the time, but

1) The PVE stuff, while nice was actually not that nice, and notably did not give you such a major advantage in PvP (realm ranks did)
2) It was managed exactly like crafted gear, including repairs (but not lootability, since that wasn't in the game), and you could use as much as you wanted (no completely different gear rules between PVE and PVP)
3) When the first expansion came, adding new PVE gear and abilities (TOA), that actually were better than what you had previously... the game imploded brutally.

And why did it implode? Because people didn't care much about the PVE stuff. Darkness Falls was just right, because it was fluff. A banner to wave as a "win" (and a nice dungeon to level your alts in). When PVE became really important... the game withered away. Because it was a PvP game, and people didn't seek the PvE side.

Oh, and the rather obvious sinking of the game meant it took 12 years with no one wanting to use that again, and the same lead design to maybe be resurrected in Elder Scrolls Online. Which, if you're really interested in a PVE/PVP mix, you'd better watch, because it's probably going to be the closest experiment for your goals you'll see for the next few years.


So, yes, I still think that PVP and PVE are water and oil. It doesn't matter how you try to mix them, if you really try too much, you end up with something no one wants to drink, and no one would dare to put in their engine.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
pvp is fine when it's an integral part of the pve experience. duking it out for resources, forming alliances, and the politics involved give it meaning. i can see why people would have a problem with class imbalance but open pvp isn't about besting all of your opponents and getting your name on a leaderboard.
 

Legaeveth

Silver Knight of the Realm
137
26
I thought Dark age of Camelot did pvp quite well and mixed both pvp and pve together to the point where you didn't have to take part in pvp if all you wanted to do was pve and raid. A game looking to maybe add pvp should seriously look at how dark age of camelot was setup and expand on it.