No, we played the same game. Clearly, we feel differently about it. And yet, you still understood my overall point. Amazing how that works, right?
EQ Never
- Thread starter Convo
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I really don't know how you can compare early eq cr to wow cr. If you lost your corpse trying to break in a camp before /consent or having some one who could train the mobs away so you could get back your gear to then either zone or try and fight the train. Or if you were the only group fighting in a dungeon in the early levels or some random off the beaten path exp spot. Hell to this day I can still get turned around in upper guk.
In wow its, safely with absolutely zero risk what so ever walk up to dungeon entrance, enter dungeon = corpse.
Yes as the game progressed in EQ you had /consent or Necro summon corpse and increasingly more ways to make CR less painful. I challenge anyone of you who played in 1999 to tell me that you were ever not worried about a CR.
In wow its, safely with absolutely zero risk what so ever walk up to dungeon entrance, enter dungeon = corpse.
Yes as the game progressed in EQ you had /consent or Necro summon corpse and increasingly more ways to make CR less painful. I challenge anyone of you who played in 1999 to tell me that you were ever not worried about a CR.
Laura all your points are valid and I answered all of them. In your first post about freedom, you are describing nearly every mud I played.
I also have commented about the revolution of 3d.
I also have commented about the revolution of 3d.
Burren
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Monks - and for that matter, rogues - don't count, good sir. Which is a brilliant point to make. There needs to be more class diversity (as we have discussed here already) in future games so that some people can fill that niche role and bring extra value to some situations. Not every class should be good DPS, or heals, or utility, or good at finding that corpse that someone lost in the bowels of the dungeon (that has REAL danger because it's a damn dungeon). We don't need more classes than we typically see, we just need the classes to be and feel different; unique and meaningful.
Laura
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Point #1 is exactly what happens in EQ. You aggro a monster that you're far too fast for it and when the distance becomes "x" the monster stops chasing you. I remember this clearly and especially in outdoors (my first character was a druid). Problem is, the leash in new games is just TOO short while in EQ it was perfect.
Laura
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In WoW dying was a feature, a "skill" that can be helpful.
For instance there's a quest which contains an item in a tower which you had to fight many monsters to get to. But instead you can just die below the tower then go back and take the stairs in ghost form and re-spawn near the quest item without the need of clearing the shit out.
That's why WoW didn't give you that thrill... death was very helpful in some cases, it is not something you'd try hard to avoid.
Burren
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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lvl 20 Alliance Rogue quest right? I remember something similar like that. But, you're right; without risk, the accomplishments aren't meaningful.
It's a fine line because even being the type of gamers we all are, do we really want ridiculous death penalties at the end of the day? Risk, yes. Danger, yes. Several hours sunk into a CR or grind to make up the loss? Not sure. We all (most) have full time jobs and/or families.
Laura
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Some Corpse Runs were..... HELL.
Not only did you lose XP and no Cleric around to rez you... it was almost impossible to get your corpse back. Group abandons you and you're SOL and JWF (Shit Out of Lock and Jolly Well Fucked).
What you can do is make an inconvenience (CR) and then give 25% of the classes in the game to over come this. Say you have 12 class in the game at least 3 (or 4) can pull your corpse to you. This will increase player-to-player interdependency and creates community.
So, if you make 25% of classes can rez and 25% of classes can summon corpse it won't be that bad. Problem with EQ is that you have only ONE rezzer (two if you count the paladin) and you have a few Corpse Summoners and add to that you have one class (at certain point) that can actually heal.
I think if you distribute skills that can over come such inconveniences or harshness of the world to different/multiple classes but each one has its own unique way then you'd create interesting interactions, keep the thrill AND give the player bigger chance to overcome them.
For instance:
Cleric can rez a corpse with 95% XP recovery
Shaman can turn you into a ghost so you can go and grab your corpse
Druid can teleport you (or you and your group) to your corpse with a 30% XP recovery and Mana Regen buff (he can do it once every hour)
Witch can put all your items you lost in your inventory (no need to CR) but without XP recovery and sickness that lasts 1 hour.
Necromancer, of course, can summon your corpse
These kind of "skills" I call them "community skills", just like teleportation. They also MUST be "unique" on how they work for ever class but they also should "cover" a world's inconvenience.. Whether it's death, traveling, or losing a corpse.
I dont remember mobs in EQ leashing at all? There was a maximum chase distance? I am just irritated, because I remember occasions where I would gate out to ZI with aggro in dungeons and mobs would come running/warping all the way to ZI
If you were worried about corpse runs you were prob bad tbh. I think the only dungeon that I even consider people should have been worried about was befallen.....
Laura
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Maybe not in dungeons but definitely in big outdoor zones and when the distance between you both are huge. However, if you get back to them they will chase you again (which means they do quit chasing you because of distance but will never forget you until you zone or die).
i remember reading some guild wars 2 forums and seeing people complain about drawing aggro from other people's mobs. this is why mmos these days suck.
Burren
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This makes sense but I never really understood it back then. Always just assumed I had aggro even from 5 miles away outdoors until I zoned since I would still randomly get attacked by the mobs (Guess I got too close to them).
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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That's my experience from EQ, yea. Outside of dungeons CR was easy and quick for every class i played more then a couple of levels, but they were all some kinda of caster or had FD/stealth. I noted that some had more trouble, warriors most of all. But thats up to a warrior player to comment on. Was your experience with outdoor CR different?
And I'm saying you cant compare dungeon CR because of instancing. EQ had instanced dungeons (even before WoW), they were about as easy to CR in (since those came late in my EQ time I only played through any in LDoN GoD, might be different from 2003 onwards). Old school EQ dungeon CR could be all kinds of nasty, especially in a PuG, but those times were over even before WoW beta. I prefer many of EQs features to WoW but all this waxing about risk of death just irks me because I very rarely felt it in EQ once I had some experience with the game mechanics.
Nobody that played early EQ can claim that with a straight face. At least the first deaths in a new zone were guaranteed OMG moments. But the changes like corpse dragging came really early, I only remember one where someone actually had to loot my corpse instead of dragging (I didnt play at release because lol no real internet, picked it up I think a couple of months before Kunark). Were you really worried that often after your first few weeks or months in EQ? If you read back I even listed the cases when I actually feared for my corpse, but the thing is that all was in like the first 2% of everyone's EQ time. Of course a total newbie to a pretty much new kind of game is gonna be scared. Your other point was also in my post, zones locked behind keys or levels were a higher risk because you couldnt get back in for that summon.