EQ Never

Draegan_sl said:

First person, for the most part, does not work well in an MMORPG because you can't see yourself. MMOs are social games and full of epeen. You want to show off your latest gear and accomplishment to other people. In Skyrim, you don't give a shit what you look like because, in the end, there is no one else to look at you. This is also the reason why there is a character portrait in your UI. A lot of people like to see themselves and be reminded.

I agree that a far-zoomed out third person perspective can help shrink the world and take you out of it. The best compromise is an over the shoulder, closer look like Defiance or Gears of War.

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Lol, so much wrong with this statement and all based on assumptions you formed with your extreme WoW bias. EQ1 classic worked great and it was a first person game, it's third person controls were so clunky as to be unusable. You just assume that everyone wants WoW's third person view because that is all we've got now.

Wrong.

Agonizing the Bait Master_sl said:

Wrong.

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Many of my friends refuse to play rpgs or mmos because of the third person view. We all did fps lan parties for years. They like first person action and will not play any game without it. There is a huge portion of the gaming player base that feel that way.

Basically, their viewpoint is that people who play third person games are gay or just like looking at female behinds.

The character portrait was the first thing I removed when I could via custom UI. I don't need to look at my shit 24/7. If you want strong immerson 1st person is the way to go, loooong time. If you want fast paced action where you can see all you environment you want 3rd person. That is the reason WoW changed that. Not because people want to look at their toon all the time, but because WoW is faster in terms of combat and action. You have lots of mobs at once on your screen that put shit on the floor and die in 4 seconds and you loose 50% if your DPS if you spent looking around for a new target for 2 seconds and can't continue to spam you rotation.

And if you dont believe me, go into WoW and play 1 dungeon or something entirely first person. You will see stuff you never saw before and the rooms have a completely different feeling. This is even more so in games that are build around 1st person, because then not every room has to be a 20 meter high cathedral so everybody can look at their bitch elf female's ass from the corner under the roof.

Why exactly can't you offer first and third person views? EQ did it. I'm pretty sure, though not 100%, that I played EQ in third person while solo and grouping (I know for a fact I had to use first person in raids, turn off all spell effects, and essentially pan my camera to the ground so my frames didn't drop down to like.. 5 per second). Playing in third person was much more preferable to me in EQ because I could actually see what was going on.

Faris_sl said:

The character portrait was the first thing I removed when I could via custom UI. I don't need to look at my shit 24/7. If you want strong immerson 1st person is the way to go, loooong time. If you want fast paced action where you can see all you environment you want 3rd person. That is the reason WoW changed that. Not because people want to look at their toon all the time, but because WoW is faster in terms of combat and action. You have lots of mobs at once on your screen that put shit on the floor and die in 4 seconds and you loose 50% if your DPS if you spent looking around for a new target for 2 seconds and can't continue to spam you rotation.

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This is a much more reasonable explanation for WoW's third person preference, not some gay "look at me" assumption. But it isn't necessary to have 3rd person view to have lots of action. FPS games do pretty well in the marketplace last time I checked. Mmos haven't taken advantage of it because most devs operate under mistaken assumptions formed with the thought process of "what WoW does is the only way".

I played a tank in EQ1 and always first person. It was a ton of fun and I was very good at it in groups, and in raids. EQ was my first mmo and rpg. I only accepted EQ because it was a first person game. That has always been my preference, I really dislike third person views. But have gotten use to them because that is where the industry went. My fps buddies still refuse to play 3rd person games.

Grim1_sl said:

This is a much more reasonable explanation for WoW's third person preference, not some gay "look at me" assumption. But it isn't necessary to have 3rd person view to have lots of action. FPS games do pretty well in the marketplace last time I checked. Mmos haven't taken advantage of it because most devs operate under mistaken assumptions formed with the thought process of "what WoW does is the only way".

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Maybe yes, however if you have both, a good 3rd person camera and a 1st person camera, then I figure 3rd person will in MMORPGs pretty much always be more "powerful" than first person. You see the same shit, plus more, including ground and a better view of the general situation. And you dont really loose much, apart from .. immerson. So you have both, people will start using what is more powerful, enables them to overcome raids and stuff more easy. So you have to build raids around that.

That is also why I think it is hard to build a game around both perspectives, especially for people like most of us, who want to be somewhat competative and be immersed.

Yep, given the option of an extended 3rd person then most players will have to use it because of the greater field of view. I think Draegan's idea of a limited 3rd person over the shoulder view, along with a first person option, is the best compromise. It doesn't give 3rd person an undo advantage.

Grim1_sl said:

Many of my friends refuse to play rpgs or mmos because of the third person view. We all did fps lan parties for years. They like first person action and will not play any game without it. There is a huge portion of the gaming player base that feel that way.

Basically, their viewpoint is that people who play third person games are gay or just like looking at female behinds.

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Sounds like a bunch of close minded faggots

So do you play a dude in third person games? In tight leather or in a dress? Lol.

Depends if its sci fi or fantasy based game

Grim1_sl said:

Many of my friends refuse to play rpgs or mmos because of the third person view. We all did fps lan parties for years. They like first person action and will not play any game without it. There is a huge portion of the gaming player base that feel that way.

Basically, their viewpoint is that people who play third person games are gay or just like looking at female behinds.

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The way you describe them your friends probably grunt, dress in furs and hunt the wooly mammoth. Anyway, you are right that for immersion first person is very important, and that's the game I'd want. I always played EQ in first person, as enchanter you needed a good overview of the situation where 3rd person is probably better I'd still want first person.

I dont believe a game offering both is a good idea. If you offer both, then 3rd person is either intentionally hamstrung or far superior and used pretty much all the time. So either make a good 3rd person view and include wheeling into first person as a gimmick, or make a good first person view and only that, no alternative. This is a conscious design decision and you have to be clear about it and stick to your guns unless you want first person to go largely unused. There are other ways to allow people to drool at their elf babe besides a permanent third person view.

Grim1_sl said:

Yep, given the option of an extended 3rd person then most players will have to use it because of the greater field of view. I think Draegan's idea of a limited 3rd person over the shoulder view, along with a first person option, is the best compromise. It doesn't give 3rd person an undo advantage.

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I have no problem with first or third. Honestly, I prefer third person more than over the shoulder.

In my opinion first person is far better for immersion. That said, it sucks when someone behind you is beating the shit out of you. Find a way to overcome that limitation and remove the tactical advantage of 3rd person and I think most people would prefer first person for RPGs.

Grim1_sl said:

Lol, so much wrong with this statement and all based on assumptions you formed with your extreme WoW bias. EQ1 classic worked great and it was a first person game, it's third person controls were so clunky as to be unusable. You just assume that everyone wants WoW's third person view because that is all we've got now.

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That might be true for you but you and your friends are in the minority.

Draegan_sl said:

That might be true for you but you and your friends are in the minority.

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You don't know that. You are just assuming it because of your "everything must be WoW" bias. Thank god FPS designers know better.

No, I do actually know that. There has been market research done by studios on it. FPS doesn't have the same issue because those games are all about gameplay, and not centered around killing bad guys for gear. And upgrades in that game are mostly statistical and not cosmetic. And the little cosmetic changes you can make are to weapons which you can see.

Ahh yes. The research boys told you the magic formula for making good games... always believe the market research guys. Next to "design by committee", market research is the holy grail of creativity and success.

Solid argument buddy. Next up, you can begin to argue against global warming because it snows a lot in your neighborhood.

If people don't care what they look like, then why do so many faggots play female characters?