WoW introducing micro-transactions is such a load of shit. As I've said eventually you will need to buy things to be at the top tier raiding every night.
EQ Never
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shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
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Know what is shitty ? The biggest advances in MMORPGs other than graphics of late has been the monetization schemes and integration of that into gameplay.
The funny thing ? Some of the things we lost may come back due to that integration...
Take DDO for example... Locked chests, Rez cakes, locked doors, potions, spell components all consumables that in many an MMO were rendered old hat for more accessibility yet DDO keeps the complexity and let's you pay for convenience .... Hint hint developers out there you can add more micro transactions !!!!! Bring the depth back !!!!!
The funny thing ? Some of the things we lost may come back due to that integration...
Take DDO for example... Locked chests, Rez cakes, locked doors, potions, spell components all consumables that in many an MMO were rendered old hat for more accessibility yet DDO keeps the complexity and let's you pay for convenience .... Hint hint developers out there you can add more micro transactions !!!!! Bring the depth back !!!!!
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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In a sub required game, people who don't have jobs and can play 24/7 have an advantage over those who can only play a couple hours a day because of life and family. What would you call that? No Life 2 Win?
I just don't care about xp boosters. If those bother you then you won't be playing many mmos in the future. Everyone is selling them now or soon will be, even WoW.
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
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Since levels mean crap anyway these days I just see it as convenience rather than pay 2 win...now if leveling slowed down some then .....
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 4,488
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These days, level cap means everything, as it is the entrance to the "real" game. Your post makes zero sense =/
I am still a huge fan of the gaming ideology that shit should be just like the oldschool raidgame from day one. You pick up your sword, you are required to go do shit that most likely will kill you, but you contribute to the greater good. Extend the believably sane; don't remove it in favor of poopsockers who suck at social interaction. Social Interaction, bitches.
I am still a huge fan of the gaming ideology that shit should be just like the oldschool raidgame from day one. You pick up your sword, you are required to go do shit that most likely will kill you, but you contribute to the greater good. Extend the believably sane; don't remove it in favor of poopsockers who suck at social interaction. Social Interaction, bitches.
Fuck I hate this general attitude of "Everyone should get to see it or it's just not fair!!!" This is coming from a guy who doesn't have heaps of spare time and can barely raid. Not everyone needs to see everything. If you don't have enough time to raid focus on achievements or some other form of solo/small group progression. It's honestly partly the reason why MMO's are terrible these days is because devs are trying to make everyone happy because poor old jimmy says "It just isn't fair" and has a whinge. MMOs used to be worlds not games you can clock.
Devs need to stop trying to cater to everyone and focus on a certain demographic and execute better then anyone else has on that specific game type. Devs will save money aswell as release a quality product for what it is because their resources aren't spread to thin.
Heallun
Lord Nagafen Raider
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A certain demographic? You mean the one with at least $15/mo income? 
But you're right, it's tough to make a compelling game that can be played in 30 minute intervals and every single mmo is being designed to be consumed in 30 minute chunks. I can't think of a single remarkable thing I did in EQ that took 30 minutes (barring this P99 joke raiding scene atm, ugh)
But you're right, it's tough to make a compelling game that can be played in 30 minute intervals and every single mmo is being designed to be consumed in 30 minute chunks. I can't think of a single remarkable thing I did in EQ that took 30 minutes (barring this P99 joke raiding scene atm, ugh)
I bet you can think of a lot of hours spent in EQ for silly things that you wouldn't ever do again, though, that seemed very meaningful at the time.
How do devs make content that is meaningful but not soul devouring? At this point I'll take simple fun and depth over it being that meaningful. I do not want to invest chunks of my life to get accomplishments. I want immersion and fun. Fuck gated content that takes a metric ton of time to unlock. Fuck caste systems a la gear check built to segregate your hardcores from your casuals which any way you slice it is idiotic design. I want EQ like sandbox, but I don't want Everquest again. It was a flawed game. Sandbox does not mean tiers based on shitloads of time invested, it simply means an open world without a theme park foundation. On top of that all it takes is good combat, letting me go where I want, but give me good tools to make the game social and fun. Roles are good. Unique items are good. Give me my Short Sword of the Ykesha and Flowing Black Silk Sash, but make it from some random event. Incremental Rift style loot makes for a boring and meaningless game that despite being fun to play is too generic.
I know some pine for the glory days of EQ, but I'm personally happy things are being designed for 30 minute intervals. I like playing in short bursts and being able to have a life. What I want is Sandbox, but built for fun and with an open world, interdependent classes, and with a dark, gothic non animated cartoony look.
XP pots are fine. Transportation is fine. The line should be about buying gear that effects the game. I'm even ok with buying pots that up drop rates. My days of ignoring life and rushing to cap are long gone, but that doesn't mean I'm not here to do the same type of MMO things I enjoyed before. I just need to do it in between my viagra sessions and before my early night geezer sleep time arrives.
Heallun
Lord Nagafen Raider
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How does one create an open world if you can travel immediately to your destination? You end up with a lobby based game like modern WoW. If you want a sandbox, do you also want persistence? If you have a limited time to play, people are gonna knock over your sand castle if it isn't defended. Group play of any meaningful type is difficult to begin in 30 minutes, really. Rounding up people will knock off 5-10 minutes unless a group finder of some sort is implimented--and if you're looking for "soul" in your game, DFs are antithetical.
It essentially sounds like you're looking for EQ-era GM events every time you log in, but unless they're automated they're going to be somewhat rare and they're going to be difficult to find and complete in your 30 minutes assuming your timing is impeccable.
The sad reality for many of us is that we've played games that have depth that simply cannot be recreated in short bursts of PC-NPC interaction and now that we have other responsibilities we can't invest the time to have such rich experiences again. Not that many games are designed in such a way, anyway. I imagine it's somewhat akin to aging rockstars who had to give up cocaine due to heart issues
edit: And I do agree about the gating of content. The thing about PoP is that literally everyone would've been in pofire / poearth because it was about the only group content worth doing (and AAXP AE'ing) once you had the flags. Combined with PoP feeling like it was around for an eternity (PoP, LoY, LDON all pretty much on similar content--in LDON your time gear remained and LDONs were done primarily for augs) backflagging became a huge issue and caused a lot of guilds to crumble. I can only kill Grummus in elemental / time gear before losing my mind
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,395
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What's the GW2 model in your opinion?
Here's my take and tell me what you see differently: For $60 you got an excellent MMO game well worth the money and 100+ hours of fun. BUT, the continuing support is very much the same as F2P games, meaning their initial plans of content updates that expand the game (Fractals, Southsun, new permanent world content like the halloween patch) have in 2013 been replaced with monthly patches of temporary content (some fun, some busy-work) that always comes with a line of gem shop skins. I'm still hoping they refocus that model within the next few months because the idea is good. But right now its too little meat and too much fluff, and the last few of them came out so rapidly that each had some glaring bugs, they seem to push their team too much and neglect QA.
That's a pretty nice idea, do any games do that? I mostly dont like $15 subs anymore because the time of going steady with one or two games is over and I dont want to put down $15 3-5 times per month for only an hour of checking out what changed. (Luckily most games went F2P anyway, only one causing this "check it out" itch constantly is EVE). I also like the PS2 way of sub giving the xp bonus, so you can check it out anytime and if you notice you want to play a few days throw down the money then (although I never subbed PS2, sticking with Heavy/Infiltrator/sunderer most of the time and maxed those through regular play and micro-transactions).
Depends on your interpretation. For me (and I think most people) P2W means you can buy something for real money that you cannot obtain through play (or only through ridiculous hours, like 20 hours play for a 1 hour consumable or the like). Microtransaction and subscriptions that only buy you time, if reasonable, are fine with most people (League of legends boosts and champions, PS2 subscription and weapons, xp pots in most F2P games are all fine imo).
Each champion in LoL takes a fairly decent chunk of playtime to unlock and there are probably over a hundred now, is it P2W? Imo definitely not. Same with unlocking runes there, building rune pages for different playstyles again takes a while, and you could argue you are gimped in the roles you have no specific rune page for. P2W? I think not.
What's the EQ crowd? In a black and white choice between EQ'02 and WoW'12 I take EQ. But I havent touched EQ since '04 because the world isnt black and white. I'm not sure if I am grouped with the "EQ crowd" in your eyes or not.
Caeden
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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That's absolutely fair criticism of gw2. I had actually expected more permenant updates and $5-$10 content packs equivalent to the size of an mmo patch. I meant gw2 model in that you've gotta fork over an initial payment. For example, swtor would still have me if they kept a box price and sold patches at $5 per patch assuming real content and not just market updates as has been happening lately. Outside of obvious p2w game, swtor is by far the worst offender.
I still think the wow shit is either in china only or never makes it. They seem to listen better than most to customers.
I still think the wow shit is either in china only or never makes it. They seem to listen better than most to customers.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I don't give a fuck if someone has more time than me to play. It's their life they can spend their time as they want. Just used that example to refute the notion that buying xp potions is P2W. Complaining about one or the other is the same thing.
XP potions are just another way to access time. I don't have a problem with them. Never bought one, and don't care if someone does. I also have very little time to play mmos anymore. Anyone that thinks xp potions are P2W is setting themselves up for some serious disappointment. Get over it or stop playing mmos.
I consider myself part of the "EQ crowd" and have never considered XP potions to be P2W. Frankly, it's pointless to even whine about them. They are here to stay.
The difference is someone who puts in effort to level can be matched by someone who puts in half the effort and 10 bucks. It's infuriating. Furthermore, what happens when that person who has the time to put in more effort also buys the XP potion? The problem is that it becomes a "must have" to compete in the game which makes it P2W. I'm not sure why are you still debating this about this.
Edit: Also, it's the concept of giving in to the QQ. These games are meant to be multiplayer, the entire point of a persistent world is that the more you put into the game, the more the game puts into you. Many if not most people are competitive by nature and a multiplayer game comes down to competition. Poeple want a fair playing field, not one where someone can just pay money and do less work. It's like any competitive game/sport, you MUST have an even playing field else players will feel disadvantaged and not want to play the game.
xp boosters are p2w, there is no counter point.
an example of a non p2w cash shop item would be like changing the color of your cloak.
an example of a non p2w cash shop item would be like changing the color of your cloak.
Heallun
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 1,100
- 1,073
If your leveling process is so fucking boring that people want to skip it, you need to rework that leveling process not add items to speed past it. Leveling a character is one of the best experiences in EQ--Having played WoW Pandaria recently, I feel like the game is insulting my intelligence leveling up a new character :|
What bugs me is that people even want them. If the grind is becoming so boring that you would pay to make it go faster, then the game has already fucked up. That was my problem in vanguard, i popped a load of potions to help me get through the boring teens faster, but then I just ended up level 25 with a dozen quests to kill 20 treants, 20 birds, 20 weird things, and 20 of another type of treant, and I just thought fuck it.
They need to start making games where its fun to play and you are rewarded for exploring and not just finding the path of least resistance. There needs to be nothing special at the high levels that you cant have at the lower levels. If its raids that people want then just add low level raids like SOD does. They have those things called Adepts which give really powerful loot but they have level caps preventing them being attacked by people too high.
I rememeber playing single player rpgs years ago like Eye of the Beholder and i didnt even know what level my guys were. I was just playing and having fun, playing to see what happened next, what was around the next corner. This level focus today makes everything bland.
They need to start making games where its fun to play and you are rewarded for exploring and not just finding the path of least resistance. There needs to be nothing special at the high levels that you cant have at the lower levels. If its raids that people want then just add low level raids like SOD does. They have those things called Adepts which give really powerful loot but they have level caps preventing them being attacked by people too high.
I rememeber playing single player rpgs years ago like Eye of the Beholder and i didnt even know what level my guys were. I was just playing and having fun, playing to see what happened next, what was around the next corner. This level focus today makes everything bland.
I wasn't having a go at you and I apologized if it seemed so. I just that every games a business and they may start with XP potions but where will they stop? It's either have a fully functional good micro-transaction or none at all in my opinion. I'd much rather 15 p/m.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Then don't play anymore mmos. Because you are going to be infuriated by all of them. XP potions are here to stay.
no kidding. i wont play EQN if they exist. not for a single second on a free weekend.
someone posted this previously, but adding cash shop XP pots to your game is basically saying "grinding xp is not fun in this game, so here's a shortcut"