EQ Never

Rezz

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,488
3,531
So the people who want long downtimes are part of a couple of different groups. You have group A) downtimes created/maintained community and social ties, group B) downtime created the mini-game of resource management, and group C) Both powers combined. Not going to touch the community thing since that's opinion and one rarely backed up with evidence and almost always claims no game since EQ has had community similar to it. Which is fucking retarded and wrong, but it's an opinion some people actually have. So! That leaves me with Group B and resource management.

The question would be, how do you keep the concept of resource management (not Torrid's fireball spam situation) without creating stupid downtime to go along with it. First possible solution is what could be called the chained cast penalty. Each time you cast the exact same spell in a row(with a cooldown that resets every so many seconds) the next time you cast it has a longer cast time, costs more mana, and/or has a longer recast. Example being a quick heal spell. First time you pop it, it's 100 instant healing for 10 mana and 2 second recast. Second time you cast it, it's 100 healing, 1 second cast time, 20 mana and 4 second recast. Third time, it's 100 healing, 2 second cast time, 30 mana and 8 second recast. So chaining one ability, even if it is your most powerful, will eventually become a really bad choice to cast regardless, and the one button spam problem is solved.

This solution can be further augmented by adding "combo" modifiers to spells that, if cast within a certain timeframe, add an effect and don't trigger the penalty. So back to fast heal. You cast HOT, which does 200 healing over 10 seconds, for 20 mana and zero recast. It also has the effect that if you cast fast heal while it is enabled, fast heal doesn't change and can effectively be "chained" for 10 seconds without getting slower and more expensive. Complete heal might give you a buff that makes your HoTs not accrue penalty for 30 seconds afterwards. Then, link abilities directly with buffs. Hell, you can take the penalty system and effectively make that a secondary effect of focii for casters. Each focus could have secondary deals like "Your Fast Heal doesn't accrue penalty if cast in between heals" while the Heal spell would still accrue penalty, or reverse it and have it make your fast heal's secondary effect be a 50% reduction in penalty for Heal. Lots of ways to play with this to create a more resource management heavy game. Extrapolate for non-magic abilities.

Another solution would be medium length cooldowns on a large portion of the spellbook. Clerics have Heal, but their CH and Fast Heal and HoT have like 3 minute cooldowns. So in a single fight you could pop them all, but you might not have them ready if the next pull comes quickly or you are still dealing with a group of mezed mobs. Extrapolate for melee classes.

Lots of things you can do differently than simply making long retarded spawns a good idea because mana/resources regenerate so slowly.
 
T

Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
I think if it's designed to be run from A to D in a linear path, people are probably going to figure out ways to do that quickly. Stuff like LDON was really more or less the same as wow to me. I feel like our downtime wasn't that high. It's really the massive dungeon designs with slower spawn times and no real destination to move to that facilitated the socializing, I think. But recreating that causes a lot of issues. I kind of liked how people used to basically hang out and live in dungeons for long times, leaving only for vendor runs. The truly lazy and/or efficient would even pay lowbies to go convert their cash and do ration runs. That was always hilarious to me.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
Torrid_sl said:
That doesn't solve the 'problem' at all. The decision-making of resource use is still removed, as players just end up button mashing fireball until they run out of mana, then AFKing until combat is over. If mana pools are large enough to not be exhausted before all the mobs die, then the player literally mashes fireball without pause from beginning to end. You might as well put in autocast and turn casting spells into autoattack. That is WoW, and that is why Blizzard had to put in stupid gimmicks like rotations and instant cast spell procs to add some small amount of interaction back into the game.

On top of that, super fast out of combat regen removes all decision-making for buffing, and forces buffs to be weak like they are in WoW. The decision to not buff to conserve resources is gone. If one person can buff 100 people in EC all day, then you either have to nerf the buffs to the point of people not desiring them very much or design the game around everybody having buffs on all the time. Every enchanter would be obligated to click and cast on everybody they saw. Only one of a buff class would be needed on a raid or in a zone.

On top of that, you damn near remove the efficiency metagame, which was a big part of EQ. Mana regen abilities become nearly useless. Slowing mobs becomes pointless unless your cleric runs out of mana mid-combat; having a high AC tank becomes pointless if your healer never runs out of mana mid-combat, etc.

You cannot remove downtime without simplifying the game. If only those advocating for zero downtime would recognize the irony of also advocating for a solo centric game when soloing is what creates the downtime they despise. Well rounded groups reduce downtime dramatically-- that's the entire point of class synergy. CH becomes ridiculously efficient on a buffed tank; clarity gives 11 mana x 6 instead of 11 x 1; tanks allow casters to meditate non-stop; regen lets casters manastone, shamans canni, necros to not have to lifetap; etc. Reducing downtime was the #1 reason to want to find a group. Nobody was reading novels in groups. (well, non-terrible groups)
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I should probably have elaborated that more, seems like you are assuming the WoW out-of-combat model. I was thinking of something more restrictive, kinda like agression timers in EVE. As a simple exampe lets go with getting agro while running by stuff gets you 2 minutes "in combat" state where you regen is diminished. Actually attacking something gets you 4 minutes, killing something gives you 6 minutes. That way at worst, 6 minutes after your last fight the out-of-combat regen kicks in and takes you to full in like 2 minutes. Max downtime of 8 minutes that way. But the rest of your post doesnt apply anymore because you arent instantly full mana after each fight, resource management is still vital to effective grouping. What you avoid is going for a shower for 15 minutes and coming back while your warrior still isnt full hp. And the latter is something that shouldnt be part of any MMO anymore.

I want resource management and "light" downtime. My example above would actually be too much downtime for me personally, I think the sweet spot is like 3 minutes. Maybe you could work resource regen on a curve instead of flat so blasting to OOM screws your recovery rate until you are back at 40%ish, and being over 80% also slows it. That way the player is rewarded for keeping the best flow of dps while maintaining their resources, but has a reserve for "oh shit" moments. Using that means you have to pace yourself back into the good regen though.

Re: Buffs

I want all buffs to be auras, no exceptions. You click it on, you leave it on and your group benefits. Possibly pair it with a resource penalty for extra decision making. That way you dont run into the buying buffs issues and encourage grouping (as opposed to logging in the KEI bot every once in a while).



TLDR: Downtime yes, enough downtime to watch a sitcom in between, no.
 
Pyros

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,317
2,421
Non systematic downtime too, downtime should be used as a punishment for playing bad/innefficiently, not just for playing. Making certain classes reduce downtime is fine even though I feel class identity should be something else than "not having to sit as long if you have one in your group" kind of bonus. At the very least, it shouldn't be mainly that, reducing downtime should be a byproduct of playing smart and that class should actually focus on that so that by playing it well, you reduce downtime. Most obvious way would be CC heavy class that job is controlling adds so the damage taken is lower, leading to less downtime on healers, as well as maybe increase damage on non CCed targets, to reduce downtime for everyone else. Then no real need for a mana regen buff because you already reduce downtime directly.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
Rezz_sl said:
So the people who want long downtimes are part of a couple of different groups. You have group A) downtimes created/maintained community and social ties, group B) downtime created the mini-game of resource management, and group C) Both powers combined. Not going to touch the community thing since that's opinion and one rarely backed up with evidence and almost always claims no game since EQ has had community similar to it. Which is fucking retarded and wrong, but it's an opinion some people actually have. So! That leaves me with Group B and resource management.

The question would be, how do you keep the concept of resource management (not Torrid's fireball spam situation) without creating stupid downtime to go along with it. First possible solution is what could be called the chained cast penalty. Each time you cast the exact same spell in a row(with a cooldown that resets every so many seconds) the next time you cast it has a longer cast time, costs more mana, and/or has a longer recast. Example being a quick heal spell. First time you pop it, it's 100 instant healing for 10 mana and 2 second recast. Second time you cast it, it's 100 healing, 1 second cast time, 20 mana and 4 second recast. Third time, it's 100 healing, 2 second cast time, 30 mana and 8 second recast. So chaining one ability, even if it is your most powerful, will eventually become a really bad choice to cast regardless, and the one button spam problem is solved.

This solution can be further augmented by adding "combo" modifiers to spells that, if cast within a certain timeframe, add an effect and don't trigger the penalty. So back to fast heal. You cast HOT, which does 200 healing over 10 seconds, for 20 mana and zero recast. It also has the effect that if you cast fast heal while it is enabled, fast heal doesn't change and can effectively be "chained" for 10 seconds without getting slower and more expensive. Complete heal might give you a buff that makes your HoTs not accrue penalty for 30 seconds afterwards. Then, link abilities directly with buffs. Hell, you can take the penalty system and effectively make that a secondary effect of focii for casters. Each focus could have secondary deals like "Your Fast Heal doesn't accrue penalty if cast in between heals" while the Heal spell would still accrue penalty, or reverse it and have it make your fast heal's secondary effect be a 50% reduction in penalty for Heal. Lots of ways to play with this to create a more resource management heavy game. Extrapolate for non-magic abilities.

Another solution would be medium length cooldowns on a large portion of the spellbook. Clerics have Heal, but their CH and Fast Heal and HoT have like 3 minute cooldowns. So in a single fight you could pop them all, but you might not have them ready if the next pull comes quickly or you are still dealing with a group of mezed mobs. Extrapolate for melee classes.

Lots of things you can do differently than simply making long retarded spawns a good idea because mana/resources regenerate so slowly.
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All of SWTOR's healing classes (and others, but healing in dis case) had this resource system. When force/ammo/energy was low, it regenerated slower and lowered your overall throughput. You could still get your resources back up in seconds, though, not minutes. The genre will not abide by barely being able to kill an even level enemy at low levels and forced grouping at high levels with downtime between mobs. It's one of the major reasons WoW destroyed EQ on launching--that and EQ had been slowly cutting it's own throat since PoP, anyway.
 
B

belfast_sl

shitlord
65
0
Mr Creed_sl said:
Re: Buffs

I want all buffs to be auras, no exceptions. You click it on, you leave it on and your group benefits. Possibly pair it with a resource penalty for extra decision making. That way you dont run into the buying buffs issues and encourage grouping (as opposed to logging in the KEI bot every once in a while).
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All this does is force the KEI bot to eat up a group slot.

The worthwhile buffs lasting more than an hour was fine. I'd rather pay some stranger or hassle my friends in town to get a buff that would let me go do something faster/easier/at all and not have to bring them along, personally.

In the context of the original game, it really wouldn't make much sense for a level 50 necro to take a level 29 enchanter and level 14 shaman to Guk with him so he can get their clarity/SoW auras. He might want those things to make the initial breaking of the camp easier.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
For the group that wants resource management instead of DDR during combat, the model TOR uses (+ some tweaks) is ok though.

Its only the audience that expects striking conversation that demands mandatory out of combat breaks. I'll use that time to chat alright - with my guild usually, maybe in tells, maayybee with my group. That's for me, I bet alot of players just look at their second screen and surf, or check if the baby drowned while they had a hard pull. So it facilitates social stuff maybe just a little, is that worth the price of massively slower gameplay (not slightly slower, that I am fine with)?
 
A

althuna_sl

shitlord
141
0
Slower gameplay is not a "price" though to some people. I preferred it. In newer games I spam my buttons and everything explodes around me. In EQ I sometimes only cast one spell in a fight, or maybe not even that if I medded through an easy kill. But it was a tactical thing, it required some thought and decision making, which the modern games just don't. So I much preferred that slower tactical style of gameplay. And it also allowed me to get more involved on what we were actually doing as a group. I could think about helping with pulls or whatever, or deciding on where we should set up camp, keeping an eye out for roamers or watching our back for respawns or something. And if I had nothing to do I would be able to spend a moment doing a /auction to buy or sell something, or just chat.

I liked the slower paced combat, for me it's not a downside, it was just better.
 
I

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
althuna_sl said:
Slower gameplay is not a "price" though to some people. I preferred it. In newer games I spam my buttons and everything explodes around me. In EQ I sometimes only cast one spell in a fight, or maybe not even that if I medded through an easy kill. But it was a tactical thing, it required some thought and decision making, which the modern games just don't.
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So your post is, essentially, "I don't like games where I have to pay attention and makeactualdecisions, I'd prefer one where the combat is so uninvolving I can afk autoattack and do other shit during battle"?
 
A

azeth

6,216
8
Itzena_sl said:
So your post is, essentially, "I don't like games where I have to pay attention and makeactualdecisions, I'd prefer one where the combat is so uninvolving I can afk autoattack and do other shit during battle"?
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you completely missed it.

Althuna is saying that spamming buttons means he/she is NOT making decisions. EQs style of tactical/dangerous combat may not have had you engaged in every fight 100%, but only because you were fully engaged in doing whatever it is you had to do to ensure survival.
 
A

althuna_sl

shitlord
141
0
Itzena_sl said:
So your post is, essentially, "I don't like games where I have to pay attention and makeactualdecisions, I'd prefer one where the combat is so uninvolving I can afk autoattack and do other shit during battle"?
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You what? Somehow you got the exact opposite of what I said.

EQ is extremely involving. I am always thinking about things. There are long term thoughts like what spells am I going to focus on using for the next few fights, where should we be heading, are we in danger of getting respawns, is our group going to be capable of splitting the room, if lull fails and we get 6 mobs, what should I do then, maybe I should save my mana boost spell until after this next room, is that mob going to wander in to our group, I should swap out my evac for something else, etc...

And then there are short term thoughts, I have to make decisions really fast and they can spell life or death for the group. Like if the tank is pulling and we get jumped by a respawn and someone is close to dying, do I unload my nukes and kill it but end up oom and maybe too low to evac? Should I just root it and hope the guy runs out the way in time. Should I use my nuke that knocks it back, and send it off the wall which will cause a huge train, but give me about 25 seconds which could be enough to let the tank get back and me evac us all to the zoneline.

I'm always thinking like that in EQ, no matter what class I am. In other games, I don't and I don't need to. It's just spamming my spell routine and watching massive fireballs blow everything up in 2 seconds.
 
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althuna_sl

shitlord
141
0
It sure is. Saved my bacon quite a lot. I remember a few weeks ago I was in a group and we were fighting stuff and were all low on mana and injured. And then some guy runs past with a train and he dies just beyond us, and I see the mobs all turn around and head straight back to us. I just hit evac right away and the mobs arrive and start eating the tank and healer and they are literally 1 second from dying when the evac triggers. Next thing they know, we are all stood in nice peaceful North Karana on about 2hp, and they're saying omg Wtf just happened?! I saved your asses that's what happened
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Caeden

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,774
13,058
I thought one thing ToR got right in most classes was the resource systems. I hated plain ol' rage on my SW, but getting away from purely blue and red bars would be welcome. But please, let's not have every fucking class with dual resource bars which is the fucking rut Blizz stuck in ever since the DK rune/RP system.
 
B

belfast_sl

shitlord
65
0
I played Rift recently and felt like there weren't many decisions to be made. I had 20 abilities on my hotbars, 10 of which were condensed into a couple of macros. I didn't have to travel, so I didnt have to decide if traveling faster mattered to me. I didn't have to decide if one class was significantly different from another, because they could all be everything. I didn't have any type of screening for an additional group member, as they were just plugged into my group for me. I didn't have to decide if I wanted to group with that person again in the future, because we were both going to hit "." or "I" again and spam instant adventures/dungeons again right after. The only decision I really made was to stop playing it.

They just need to get the pace right. If health and mana regens right after combat ends, regen effects and spells can't exist. If everyone has a mount/runs fast so early in their character's life, run speed buffs can't exist. I mean, these should be powerful things that you spend time obtaining. That should be why you are playing the game in the first place; your character is terrible, you are making it better. It sounds like when asked this question directly - before the game exists - some people are answering with an enthusiastic "Yes," and some people are like "well, kindof, but it shouldn't suck that much."

My only hope is the pace is really toned down from what we have seen from the last decade of similar games. If it starts too fast, that's not something you can really undo. It should be up to the players to increase the pace, via items/spells/group synergies, etc.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
I get what you're saying, but again I dont think the concept of meditating throughout a whole fight has a place in games in 2013. Different opinions are ok though, I'm not saying go to hell. That's also not the same as everything being DDR everywhere, all the time. There's a middle ground where you are forced to make reactive, quick decisions on what to do right now as well as tactical ones about resource management, positioning and respawns. That last bit is fairly crucial, too. Respawns and roamers add far more to the dungeon experience then having to take med breaks, and having or not having roamers/respawn is part of dungeon design no matter of your game has DDR or auto-attack/afk combat.
 
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