EQ Never

Rezz_sl said:

It's ok to feel that way. Nobody is saying you are wrong for feeling that way. Just don't expect a triple A game being designed to "change the market" to recycle dated mechanics from a 14 year old game that rose to prominence under extremely specific circumstances. I wouldn't expect a WoW-anything either, but EQ:Reskinned it will not be.

I'll extrapolate before a hipster attempts to do it for me. EQ was around when the internet and online persistent gaming were pretty new, with 3d online persistent gaming being super new. It was the only game in town for a couple of years, and it was the only working PVE friendly game that wasn't FFXI for longer.

Lots of those memorable players that we ran into during our EQ careers wouldn't have played EQ (at least not very long) had the casual, solo friendly option been available. But it wasn't, so being the only horse in town lead to the very specific circumstances that was the forced "community" that existed in EQ during the early years. It was also much more difficult to box in the early days, as it was a combination of cost and technology prohibitive. Dialup was still the primary internet connection speed during those years, so the average person was not boxing his entire group. From velious+, it was quite easy to box all the necessary classes to effectively group with yourself, which is what many many many people did. Especially at the high end. So yeah, ignorance and newness of the genre, the type of connections available, and the fact that it was the only PVE focused game on the market that worked, all contributed to EQ being what EQ was. The problem arises that those circumstances are all marked false right now, so you have to be a little out of touch to think that the same thing could exist again in the same way.

There is nothing wrong with liking and appreciating that style of gameplay. But EQ:N isn't going to be the same as EQ and even hoping for it is to really just pretend that the last 13 years of technological/mechanical/thematic/social changes didn't happen. The guys at SOE may love their baby "EQ," but they are first and foremost a business. They -know- what has changed in the world and marketplace at large, so seeing a repeat of an idea that flourished under extremely specific circumstances is probably simply not going to happen from any triple A company in their headline products.

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you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but please, for the love of fucking god, stop trying to pass it off as fact. stop trying to act like EQ existed in some sort of vacuum and was the only game available for people to play. it wasn't. people chose to play EQ because it was head and shoulders above every other game out there, and that's why at the time it was the most successful MMO on the market, and the reason why there are a lot of us who would still enjoy a game made in that same model.

etchazz_sl said:

stop trying to act like EQ existed in some sort of vacuum and was the only game available for people to play. it wasn't. people chose to play EQ because it was head and shoulders above every other game out there, and that's why at the time it was the most successful MMO on the market, and the reason why there are a lot of us who would still enjoy a game made in that same model.

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Exactly and thousands of people still play this game both on the official servers and on emulators because it has gameplay and mechanics that a decent number of people find enjoyable and even superior to those of modern MMO's. EQ was never mainstream but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a good game or that people played it because they had nothing else available to take up their time.

etchazz_sl said:

you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but please, for the love of fucking god, stop trying to pass it off as fact. stop trying to act like EQ existed in some sort of vacuum and was the only game available for people to play. it wasn't. people chose to play EQ because it was head and shoulders above every other game out there, and that's why at the time it was the most successful MMO on the market, and the reason why there are a lot of us who would still enjoy a game made in that same model.

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Are you perhaps suggesting that there were lots of 3D world first person class based mmo RPGs around? There were not. It competed with literally nothing on release, uo was not competition meridian was not competition.

Carl_sl said:

Are you perhaps suggesting that there were lots of 3D world first person class based mmo RPGs around? There were not. It competed with literally nothing on release, uo was not competition meridian was not competition.

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UO & Meridian were certainly competition as was Asheron's Call and later Anarchy Online (2001). You don't get to narrow the field like that buddy that's not how this works.

tad10_sl said:

Which ones specifically are dated?

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Content that strictly rewards playtime vs. skill/ability/any ingame metric beyond simply being their first. Content that is only available based upon playtime and not on skill/ability/any ingame metric beyond simply being their first. Combat that has little to no interactivity for the majority of classes in the game. Public dungeons with no viable alternative that are frequently overcamped to the point of 10-20 minute respawn times being the only times you get to do anything. Forced grouping with little to no solo/duoable content outside of very specific encounters. Travel times that exist simply to absorb time and have little to no danger in doing so, or if there is danger it is software bug/hardware loading related and not content related.

To expand on combat, put simply, anything you can effectively box and have most the functionality of a real person due to the lacking attention requirements and class/combat design, is dated. That is progress quest. The game should never reward you for not playing it.

And because I feel generous, I -also- feel that instanced content that consists of hallway-boss-hallway is bullshit and should go away. I think ddr spam for -every- fight is stupid and while it doesn't really exist for most games, shouldn't be emulated in any other games. I think magically being at full health 2 seconds after every fight is silly, but conversely I also think that having to sit for 3-4 minutes after a fight doing -nothing- but sitting is equally silly. Regardless of downtime, community/socialization exists just as it did in the old days. Make the game super boring where people can only chat, and they will go chat. On Facebook.

Week long spawn timers on uninstanced raid mobs that can get locked into a timezone is fucking retarded and should never be a thing again. Take timezone and physical time online out of the equation. Cockblocking is a mechanic for PVP, and EQ was 95% not a PVP game.

Those, right up there? Are dated mechanics. Update those to something more modern and we'll talk. Copy and paste 14 year old stupid design decisions that only worked under very specific circumstances? That isn't EQ:Next. That's EQ:Bankrupt.

edit: Also, UO basically died when EQ was released, Meridian was -not- competition, and AO released so buggy that most people couldn't get it to work right let alone retain their subs. FFXI was the first real contender for EQ subs and it didn't make the biggest dent in the world due to lots of western PC guys not being into console stuff and vice-a-versa. The biggest drop in EQ subs til 2003ish was when DAOC released, and those came back almost immediately. So yes, there wasn't any other real games in town to compete with. Claiming otherwise is to rewrite actual history.

Rezz_sl said:

Content that strictly rewards playtime vs. skill/ability/any ingame metric beyond simply being their first. Content that is only available based upon playtime and not on skill/ability/any ingame metric beyond simply being their first. Combat that has little to no interactivity for the majority of classes in the game. Public dungeons with no viable alternative that are frequently overcamped to the point of 10-20 minute respawn times being the only times you get to do anything. Forced grouping with little to no solo/duoable content outside of very specific encounters. Travel times that exist simply to absorb time and have little to no danger in doing so, or if there is danger it is software bug/hardware loading related and not content related.

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This isn't "dated" content. These are conscious design decisions that are still usable today. I'm not saying EQ got all of these things right, but I would argue it was much closer than WoW. I have my own list of complaints for "modern" MMOs:

Content that everyone has access to regardless of playtime/skill/any other factor. Combat that requires you to use the exact same 5-10 abilities every single fight masquerading as a complex and in-depth fighting system. Generic classes that can only offer heals, damage, or tanking. Large portions of content that can be solo'd by any class in the game, negating the desire for grouping or social interaction. Instances, which make the overall game feel more like a bunch of mini games and sever any continuity the world may have had. Wholly artificial limitations on the number of people that you can take on a raid or into a dungeon. The ability of any class to get to any location in a very short amount of time, cheapening the size of the world. PvP that is only based on what class you play and what class you are playing against. Little to no consequence for dying. Rare loot that is widely available. A game experience that is almost completely unaffected by the other people playing it.

Rezz_sl said:

edit: Also, UO basically died when EQ was released, Meridian was -not- competition, and AO released so buggy that most people couldn't get it to work right let alone retain their subs. FFXI was the first real contender for EQ subs and it didn't make the biggest dent in the world due to lots of western PC guys not being into console stuff and vice-a-versa. The biggest drop in EQ subs til 2003ish was when DAOC released, and those came back almost immediately. So yes, there wasn't any other real games in town to compete with. Claiming otherwise is to rewrite actual history.

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Like, that IS competing. And losing.

Rezz_sl said:

So yes, there wasn't any other real games in town to compete with. Claiming otherwise is to rewrite actual history.

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This is beyond retarded. If EQ had sucked no one would have played it as there were many other things a person could do in 1999-2004. Holy fuck.

As for your supposedly dated mechanics (1) social interaction in in-world dungeons is what is missing from "modern" MMOs and (2) boxing is a plus not a minus.

Just because you want to play DDR doesn't mean the world wants to play DDR. Indeed, the single most common refrain I've seen on other EQN threads on other sites is the desire to eliminate DDR gameplay in MMOs. People are tired of dancing around the fires all the fucking time.

Gask_sl said:

EQ was never mainstream

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tad10_sl said:

UO & Meridian were certainly competition as was Asheron's Call and later Anarchy Online (2001). You don't get to narrow the field like that buddy that's not how this works.

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You didn't just try and say AO was a competitor to EQ did you? That game never made it past the first month because of how bad the launch was. Graphics matter to some people and both UO and Meridian just didn't have the graphical flare the masses wanted and EQ delivered.

tad10_sl said:

This is beyond retarded. If EQ had sucked no one would have played it as there were many other things a person could do in 1999-2004. Holy fuck.

As for your supposedly dated mechanics (1) social interaction in in-world dungeons is what is missing from "modern" MMOs and (2) boxing is a plus not a minus.

Just because you want to play DDR doesn't mean the world wants to play DDR. Indeed, the single most common refrain I've seen on other EQN threads on other sites is the desire to eliminate DDR gameplay in MMOs. People are tired of dancing around the fires all the fucking time.

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Boxing ruined Everquest's Economy more than RMT ever did. I think I had around 3 million platinum in 2004 by 6 boxing Halls of Testing quest tears and selling the MQ. I didn't have to split the plat with any person and could control the spawn timer for a month. Combat that requires constant attention from you (like DDR) prevents boxing from occurring without the help of third party software.

tad10_sl said:

Lol. Sure buddy. So I guess every time there's a cutscene in WoW you flipout?
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Anyway, it's amazing how many people in the EQN thread never appear to have actually played EQ.

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I suppose I would if I ever once played WoW. But I never did. Picked up the box more than once even downloaded the demo, but those graphics are just not for me, and I could never bring myself to play it. As for your insinuation I never played EQ, C'mon man just because you had a shit tastic idea does not mean I never played EQ. I am not sure how you even correlate the two, there was never a time in EQ I could play the game and walk away and have a smoke at the same time.

tad10_sl said:

UO & Meridian were certainly competition as was Asheron's Call and later Anarchy Online (2001). You don't get to narrow the field like that buddy that's not how this works.

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Yeah the AO part made me laugh. AO had a horrible launch, bugs galore, server issues galore, a massive memory leak etc. It literally died before its first month was over, it was never any competition(Which sucks because it was a amazing game and did a lot of innovations).

EQ had minor competition from daoc, but not a lot. FFXI came when EQ was already floundering. As soon as WoW launched it was over, players moved in huge masses to it from EQ. UO/AC/Meridian pretty much had zero impact on EQ, population wise.

Other tidbit, people hate instances, yet EQ itself starting moving to them more then a year before WoW's release(remember AO had them in 2001).

Excidium_sl said:

You didn't just try and say AO was a competitor to EQ did you? That game never made it past the first month because of how bad the launch was. Graphics matter to some people and both UO and Meridian just didn't have the graphical flare the masses wanted and EQ delivered.

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Just because they failed doesn't mean they weren't competition. EQ was better, then EQ got curb-stomped by WoW and many games competed with WoW and also got curb-stomped until we're in the situation now where Wow is bleeding subs and there isn't another good game in sight.

@Greyform my bad as I now remmeber you posting many times about EQ on fohguild. Mea Culpa for lumping you in with the no-EQ crew. My apologies.

cinge_sl said:

Other tidbit, people hate instances, yet EQ itself starting moving to them more then a year before WoW's release(remember AO had them in 2001).

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And it was a bad idea for EQ too.

Carl_sl said:

Are you perhaps suggesting that there were lots of 3D world first person class based mmo RPGs around? There were not. It competed with literally nothing on release, uo was not competition meridian was not competition.

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I don't think anyone was forcing themselves to play EQ just because it was unique for its time. If it was terrible people would have just stopped playing entirely.

More sub genres need to come IMO... MMO-A-RPGs , MMO-RPGS , MMOs that are worlds ...those that are games ...to name a few .. Lately we have gotten more games and ARPGs... We need one of the MMO-RPGS in a real world again

cinge_sl said:

Yeah the AO part made me laugh. AO had a horrible launch, bugs galore, server issues galore, a massive memory leak etc. It literally died before its first month was over, it was never any competition(Which sucks because it was a amazing game and did a lot of innovations).

EQ had minor competition from daoc, but not a lot. FFXI came when EQ was already floundering. As soon as WoW launched it was over, players moved in huge masses to it from EQ. UO/AC/Meridian pretty much had zero impact on EQ, population wise.
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Had zero impact? UO subscriber numbers peaked at 250,000 in 2003. 4 years after EQ was released. EQ's peak was 500,000. Please stop making things up.

Bellringer_sl said:

People claim that those with these competitive spirits are in the minority. They claim that the majority of the people would log off and QQ in some corner then play some game that gives them everything they want until they realize the game sucks and they never know why. lol.

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Those people are right with their claim. Most MMO players these days seek instant gratification. Doesnt mean every game has to cater to them, and hopefully EQN wont.

qwerty_sl said:

Can't see that happening somehow. All the talk about Eve, I have a feeling there are going to be DAOC style outlands areas where you fight for resources, defend towns, and defend access to certain dungeons - all against mobs and players of various factions. I think there will be no racial things, just factions galore. Anyone can join the Freeport faction and be at war with the Oggok faction etc.

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That sounds fine with me, as long as that iksar has to work his ass off to be accepted as a defender of qeynos. The Drizzt people will flock to it.

tad10_sl said:

Which ones specifically are dated?

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Zone lines are pretty dated imo, the tech exists to have continent-sized landmasses without zoning. Zone sizes were probably tech-limited in EQs day, but these days its just an easy and cheap solution to provide different environments in relatively small zones.

Personally I find respawn and bind point restrictions as EQ had them dated, too. I prefer bind point choices to be equal for all players, and only in Inns/guilds you have good faction with to lend some weight to your actions in the world (piss everyone off, enjoy long corpse runs).