EQ Never

Sylas_sl said:

Sandbox is only meaningful with open world pvp. Developers agree completely with that statement.

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Who said that? He's dumb. Or you are misinterpreting his stance. No sane designer would completely agree with that statement.

DMK_sl said:

Let's just all pray they keep PvP and PvE two completely separate things. Any MMO that has PVE skills being used for PvP will always fail as a PvP game.

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And any MMO that has PvP and PvE as two separate games will fail as a world. One of the things that, supposedly (From the few comments we have) to Smedley wanting EQN to try and make this radical shift is the direction of MMO's becoming nothing more than graphic-lobbies for sets of mini-games (IE Not being "worlds"). Having separate rules for each mini-game leads to that effect, eventually all your sub-rules just become easier to compartmentalize and you're designing things for specific minigames (BG PvP, Arena PvP, PvE, Raids, PvE 5 mans ect ect). If PvE is not a structural part of PvP, and PvP is not a part of PvE, then just eliminate one. Don't sacrifice your world to attempt to hold onto some useless concept--because in the end, it just makes the whole world feel more artificial and more like a dumb game lobby.

However, I'd say it's entirely possible to create a well rounded, PvE/PvP game using all the same skills in both areas. But it has to be designed from the ground up with that in mind. And part of that design has to be how involved you want both sides to be--is your PvE very complex scripted raids, like WoW? Or is it a form a resource farming, like UO or even early EQ (Where you allow it to be trivial at the cost of resources per person on the encounter)...And you have to ask those same questions about PvP, to. But you design the whole game with that kind of stuff in mind and it should be possible to design a world where the PvE/PvP is seamless (And perhaps one is just less emphasized.--Like a PvE paradigm where raids are more about efficiency, rather than absolute skill, so the mechanics of said PvE play nice with PvP.)

Ambiturner_sl said:

So you say you need community and socializing to be important, then say I should form a group and steal everyone else's mobs? Way to be a hypocrite. Plus how the hell do you pull mobs at a faster pace when the place is on lockdown and things die as fast as they spawn? The whole point is there weren't enough mobs to go around. Holy fuck Your arguments make no sense.

There's also the fact that repeated kill stealing was a bannable offense.

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All communities need rivalries. There will never be a point where everyone around is lubby dubby and enjoys each other's companies. Peoples personalities are far too different. Part of what keeps a group together given these different personalities are common goals... and common enemies. I was not being a hypocrite at all. You sound like such a fucking pussy.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that there were never times were Lguk/solb were inefficient. I am saying that there were ways to fight through it. Apparently you didn't and still don't have the stones to step on toes, think outside the box, and fucking win. It's okay. There are places for people like you... on the bottom.

Developers and pvp for open worlds as a mainstay? Dont see that happening without failure and limited subs. Just EQ alone, how many servers were pvp vs pve? On top of that didnt that shrink fast due to players leaving to play on pve servers. How well is Darkfall doing? Limited subs right? Eve, same... Minecraft, one of the closing sandbox games you have, server rules sets...how many are pvp vs pve?

One thing to keep pvp as a hobby, another to force it on your player base and wonder why your not getting subs! I could bend to understand the logic if many of these games had more pvp servers over pve but they dont! There is a reason for it and it isnt due to devs and their logic on the subject, its because majority doesnt like pvp. This isnt Black-OPS with swords!

The solution is so simple it hurts my brain MMO's haven't done it already. Have a small amount of Hardcore Full loot PvP servers a few more PvP servers and mostly PvE servers. Seriously how fucken hard is that to implement.

I dont know why this is still being debated. Gaming history showed us countless times you cant have both PvE and PvP.

Having both you force the watering down of awsome and fun pve skills / spells and the opposite is a completly one sided pvp game.

Theres already plenty of options for watered down pve and pvp games at the moment. Let us a have a pve game designed from the ground up.

edit: actually having both isnt a problem. Trying to balance both is just stupid.

I could find that refreshing. Would certainly make for some wildly unpredictable moments.

If that's the case I'd enjoy the shit out of it. But I doubt it will be a huge success.

Laedrun_sl said:

Hopefully they'll copy the eq1 pvp model and just put it on its own servers with crazy loot everything ffa or faction based servers. The pvp players could have their crazy all-in rulesets and the pve people could have their none at all, instead of trying to come up with some dumb hybrid model that always fails to satisfy both groups completely.

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IIRC, Rallos Zek had an open loot system restricted to one item. It worked out well early but the shift towards No-drop items took a lot away from it. Some mix of the FV/RZ pve loot system, maybe with a delay when unequipping an item, could work. If there's no risk on a PvP server then it need not exist. It sounds like Eve has a nice balance between item/ship value and refitting yourself when you get killed. You feel the sting but can turn around and buy another ship and get back into playing quickly. Honestly, if this ends up being Eve with a high fantasy setting (alluded to a few times in this thread), it will do well for itself.

A lot of people just like elves more than space.

Lithose_sl said:

However, I'd say it's entirely possible to create a well rounded, PvE/PvP game using all the same skills in both areas.

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I'm sure theoretically this is true, but the real world anecdotal evidence begs to differ.

I'm cool with PVP/PVE, and my preference is open world PVP in a gated area to protect ones normals. What ends up torpedoing things is when the devs are more worried about balance and making everyone a lemming, instead of fun and growth.

I'd take Smed's tweets with a grain of salt. They really tell us nothing.

It's also important to note that without the "one shard" aspect of EVE, a lot of the core tenets of the gameplay are lost. You need a giga-fuckton of landmass to do a one shard fantasy MMO, and I'm not saying it's beyond them, but there's going to be some fundamental differences if this is a multi-server game. As much as I would love a land-based, fantasy EVE it seems incredibly unlikely.

Of course that's not to say that they can't copy a lot of the design philosophy, which is what I'm hoping for.

EVE can make a mega server because each sector is it's own instance and I think even different encounters are instanced off as well. It's done seemlessly but it allows them to put everyone in a single server. The other easy thing is that you don't have to really draw up many art assets in a zone. It's just empty space with some planet/moon/astroid/star graphics floating around. A huge world server in a fantasy setting will have to load much more than that.

It would be awesome if the tech is there to create a mega server.

Sylas_sl said:

The President of SOE

Feel free to browse his tweets about EQN in which all of them indicate that you're in for a rude awakening. The game will be more like Eve (or UO if you are unfamiliar with Eve) than Everquest.


Eve has more subscribers than Everquest ever did. It's also the only game that has continuous growth year over year. It's also the game that SOE's president plays.

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My guess is it will be like EvE but with a much larger focus on PvE. PvP will have a bigger footprint in EQN compared to EQ, but PvE will still be the main game. Which is the opposite of EvE. PvE is EQ's bread and butter, that isn't going to change.

Also EQ in it's prime I'm pretty sure had more subs than EvE, and that was during the time that the overall mmo population was much less. Both games, if I remember correctly, were just under 500k subs. So very similar numbers.

Shadowbane didn't have battleground and arena queues

It didn't suck

Gear didn't have resilience

That didn't suck either

i'm fine with open world gank style PvP if it doesn't suck for most every class (see: EQ)

i don't even know if there'll be pet classes, but if there will be they are pretty much guaranteed to have an advantage over every melee.

Shadowbane gear had resilience. I remember being pissed when some awesome throwing axes with double haste both broke after I got ganked before I could repair between deaths.

Nirgon_sl said:

Shadowbane didn't have battleground and arena queues

It didn't suck

Gear didn't have resilience

That didn't suck either

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Gimme whatever youre smokin. Shadowbane was miserable and received the quick death it deserved.