EQ Never

Soygen_sl said:

Please get back on topic, people. rolx is not qwerty.

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Will do. Thx for confirmation.

Lleauaric_sl said:

Another interesting AI change.

Dragon has an AE breath weapon. With a better AI he isnt going to waste that AE on the one warrior standing in the corner, but wouldnt he turn his head and hit the max number of people each time? He would understand the difference between an AE attack and a single target attack. Storybricks AI would build in him the desire to hit as many people as possible with his AE and he would try to do that.

Even from that, it completely changes big boss fights.

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Yeah, but this is what we're talking about. If the dragon is that smart, then I (And my fellow front line foot soldiers) should be able to stick my/our huge spears(s) in his rib cage when he turns to breath my harrying (Behind the lines) people. Remember, the tank is just an abstraction of front line troops--and people pay attention to front line troops because they will murder you very quickly if you don't. This is why you send things like fighter escorts in with bombers, it's not that the fighters are going to domoredamage to the war machine (Group), it's just that they will kill your defenders more immediately. It becomes a rational choice for the defenders to make, to deal with the immediate threat (Fighter) and leave perhaps the more dangerous overall threat (To infrastructure and the greater war machine), the bomber, untilafter. If people were completely rational about only thinking about the great goals, then Kamikaze actions would have been used sooner. (It's why drones are great, none of that human self preservation rationality in there--it only comes down to not losing money. So if theoretically a drone could Kamikaze a more expensive bomber, it would.)

If you're going to make AI think like a human, then you need to give it thephysicaland mental (Rational) limitations humans have. By physical, I mean "fair" abstracted playing grounds. And while I think it was be novel if a dragon was smart--I'd also think that a dragon with a nominal amount of HP for his mass, compared to players (So, no more than 15ish times the base player) would get raped. In fact, the more you make him "real" the more severe that rape would be. Imagine if we didn't have HP? But actual hit locations? Like taking out something's knee prevents it from moving. Iguaranteeif I could target hits, a dragon would pay attention to me, because I'd have a big ass, fire resistant shield, and one handed spear, and if the dragon turned, he'd have a new hole to breathe through in his lung. (Or a dozen new holes, as the multiple front line troops would do that.)

So it really comes down to, how abstracted are you making your game? If you use the level of abstraction WoW does, then it makes no sense for the dragon to do that, without a script. Because, in the end, Blizzard could easily have any dragon beat the piss out of the players. Even the most elite raid force won't beat a heavily abstracted (High HP, Immune to X or Y damage) raid boss. So, giving AI to that requires you take away some advantages we've given them over the MMO evolution. And I understand that's what this guy is saying BUT....

Does anyone think a game AI can realistically handle all the variables a team of humans can throw at him? I mean, maybe ONE human, in a "hard counter" type game, could be accounted for by an AI--because you limit choices and therefor variables the AI has to deal with. But when you're talking 5 or 10 players? The variables explode into the thousands or millions, and I just don't see a modern AI even coming close to beating that. Except if they have massive advantages, and then you get a system like GW2, where it's essentially super buffed mobs, that "cheat" but also don't follow the rules created to make their cheating tolerable.

And that usually ends up sucking. Because there is no fidelity in the nature of combat then. You have NPC's that have the "human" advantage of not being controllable, but they also still have the NPC advantage of being essentially 200 times stronger than a PC. It's essentially like playing against bad human opponents using a cheat code then. How much fun has anyone had doing that? Simon says scripting can be fun (Bleh, not for me)...Chaotic fights against opponents with the same values, rationalities and rules as yourself? Also fun if they are challenging (TF2). Chaotic fights against AI with numerous inherent physical advantages (GW2)? No thanks.

Again though, I get what you're saying and if they can pull it off, it will be great...I've just never seen a single player game that's at all challenging, ever. Unless it's a very deliberate set of variables against a single player (Like chess.) or it still gives numerous advantages to the AI (Dark Souls).

mkopec_sl said:

But thats his whole point hes trying to make, or at least the way I understood it, that they would in fact need to be redesigned with other skills not limiting classes to the same old tank, dps, heals trinity, therefore not limiting a tank to just stand there and whack buttons while reading his aggro meter if he should whack them faster. The healer would have to have more abilities than just heals as well as the mage and rogue characers having other skills as well.

Also while the Ai of the boss or the general mob is now smarter, so he does not need a million more hitpoints than you have. Mobs, even bosses can now have limited hit point pools. Now the trick is to outthink the mob rather than out dps him before the enrage timer goes off and your tank dies.

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Yeah, but that's my point. He dives into saying this, says it's absolutely true, but then harps on Chris for saying the game would need to be redesigned from it's current model (A model built around these kinds of things.). Seemed, illogical, to say Chris was wrong while agreeing with him. I just didn't get his reasoning for that. Like he just wanted to disagree so he could make his own version of the point, but his version of the point was just semantically different.

Lithose_sl said:

Yeah, but that's my point. He dives into saying this, says it's absolutely true, but then harps on Chris for saying the game would need to be redesigned from it's current model (A model built around these kinds of things.). Seemed, illogical, to say Chris was wrong while agreeing with him. I just didn't get his reasoning for that. Like he just wanted to disagree so he could make his own version of the point, but his version of the point was just semantically different.

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Eh EQN has redesigned classes. So not sure where you're going with this? Dave Mark needs to articulate his arguments better and/or he's full of it there?

rolx_sl said:

I've never attacked any of you just retaliated. Truth hurts.

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You are fucking delusional.

Anyways, from omeedd over at /r/eqnext:

There will not be any playable EQN anything at Gamescom. There will be some behind closed door (publicly accessible) presentations of EQN/Landmark that have new announcements (and new footage).

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ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

Back to the topic of ingame abortions. Will there be an abortion priest class whose 2 weapon types are coat hangers and rusty spoons?

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Yes, but abortion priest will be located after digging a hole to tier 3 as to not encourage under leveled players from having children before they are rdy

mkopec_sl said:

Actually no one knows wtf is going on, so its like a blind person laughing at another blind person because he is blind as well. You do seem pretty angry, whats up? Maybe you should get out more.

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Lol, first thing i thought of.

The more they show and talk about this game, the more I hate it.

They can deny it all they want, but all this class talk boils down to the same class model GW2 put out. You want to solo? We got a game for that. You want to group? We got a game for that. You don't need to have a dedicated healer, because everyone can heal themselves if they have to. Don't want to die? Then dodge the attack! Blah, blah, blah... sounds great on paper doesn't it? We have seen how it plays out in reality.

So, let's snap back to reality. People will always take the path of least resistance, whether it is ultimately detrimental to them or not. I don't understand the notion of going to the trouble to creating an MMO, when it is essentially a solo experience in an online environment. Hi, GW2. Outside of the requirement for dungeons, there was no reason to ever group with anyone. Every class was essentially the same, with different sparklies and attack animations. The game was designed from the ground up so that players could never positively or negatively affect one another's experience.

Even EQ1 struggled with grouping benefits/requirements till they upped the EXP bonus over the years to the point where their was essentially no penalty and even better-than-solo-bonuses to 6 player groups. EVEN THEN, when given the option to multi-box or fill groups up with Merc's people tend to take the path of least resistance and load up a few windows and pop their mercs out. Required interaction and grouping is what made 1999 era EQ the best MMO ever. Ya, it was a pain in the ass some times and the frustration of LFG'ing for an hour was soul crushing, but it also made finding group, developing friends, and joining guilds that much sweeter.

True MMO's died the day companies started proclaiming "We have solo content for EVERYONE!".

The simple fact that EQN won't have a dedicated heal slot for every class, and that some classes can't slot in any heals whatsoever, guarantees that the combat will be at least a little different from GW2; you won't be able to go into a situation with the assumption that everyone will handle their own healing.

I dunno man... I'm skeptical about multiclassing from a player identity standpoint in that I think it might impact longevity.

However, I don't think multiclassing will ncrease solo ability at all if done correctly. Encounters will still be a game of numbers and rock/paper/scissors, and just because you have a bunch of abilities available to you doesn't mean you will have the numbers available to defeat them without multiple players.

Also, I have a couple general class mix ideas rolling around in my head... And if they are possible... This is going to be the best MMO character experience of my life. Not to mention, if I have to collect 4+ classes and tier them up to max to make them viable I could be playing this game a looooong time.

rolx_sl said:

You were talking about EQN system actually, good try reverting it to EQ. You specifically said the cash shop system should allow you to buy station cash and exchange it for in-game money. That right there makes you a total boner and the reason games these days suck. As I pointed out to you before your the reason games suck these days because you have to work all day and then only have 1-2 hours to play so you think you should be on the same level as someone that puts in time. I know thats why your salty because I said it to you before and you QQ, so thats why you are still mad. I get it, but at the end of the day your the reason games suck these days and people like you are the ones responsible.

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i agree with you, p2w ruins games but sad truth in life is some of us do need to grow up start working and do other things in life besides camp a spawn for 15 hours.

Randin_sl said:

The simple fact that EQN won't have a dedicated heal slot for every class, and that some classes can't slot in any heals whatsoever, guarantees that the combat will be at least a little different from GW2; you won't be able to go into a situation with the assumption that everyone will handle their own healing.

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And the thing is too, it probably won't even be beneficial to have every single person to take a heal. Will you be able to defeat content with everyone healing themselves? Probably. But that doesn't make it the most efficient way.

I wish there was camping a spawn for 15hours. Or at least some significant way to differentiate yourself from other people. Modern mmos everyone is pretty much exactly the same. Cant have any have-nots they might quit the game and go play something else.

dogbarf_sl said:

I wish there was camping a spawn for 15hours. Or at least some significant way to differentiate yourself from other people. Modern mmos everyone is pretty much exactly the same. Cant have any have-nots they might quit the game and go play something else.

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No camping in EQN AFAIK. I'm a little bummed about that as well.

@Fight & etc. Eh we'll see - a little early to hate on it though, don't you think?

Round table question #1 discussion. Has this been posted yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq4l3...ature=youtu.be

slicedmass_sl said:

Round table question #1 discussion. Has this been posted yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq4l3...ature=youtu.be

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game heavily based in collections

earn right to display particular weapons/armor, e.g. transmog

with player knowledge, able to determine what class someone is by what wearing (armor/weapons)

racial armor families

plate (typically more defensive), cloth, leather

swap armor in n out w/o affecting stats (no stats on armor anyway)

can wear armor only within a racial family type (eg. dark elf plate), goes back to identifiability

visual progression is key

So, transmogs then... Great.

dogbarf_sl said:

I wish there was camping a spawn for 15hours. Or at least some significant way to differentiate yourself from other people. Modern mmos everyone is pretty much exactly the same. Cant have any have-nots they might quit the game and go play something else.

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The new time differential is effectively maxing faction grinds/achievement unlocks such as titles/mounts/whatever. Effectively the same as camping in that you spend a considerable amount of time for a minor/if any increase to differentiate yourself.

Or, as was the case in EQ, you camp things so that you -do- become more the same and less different. At least for the first 3 years.

Quaid_sl said:

So, transmogs then... Great.

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Do we hate transmogs now? Hard to keep up.

I like the idea of it being limited at the very least - can only transmog Dark Elf Plate with other Dark Elf Plate, etc.