EQ Never

zzeris

zzeris

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mkopec_sl said:
I dont mind changing roles on the fly, thats not what Im taking about. Its the lack of roles in general, which from my understanding is the way EQN is heading. That you are basically a do it all type of character, but yet with no defined role in general. A do it all but master of none, if you get my meaning.

If what you say is true and there will in fact be defined roles that you can switch in and out of, than I take back what I said.
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I think they have to have defined roles but situationally. You aren't always a healer, tank, etc. You fill those roles as the group needs them or as your skills, preferences allow. I agree that everyone being a tank, healer, dps, mezzer would be stupid. I would hope they know this is obvious especially after GW2. That's my main point to people. GW2 hopefully showed the flaws of their system so that EQN will not follow their footsteps.
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

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You really dont need predefined roles if encounters are designed to demand different jobs. People will conform to what is needed. Classes are limited to only be able to do a limited number of things.
 
Mr Creed

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Miele_sl said:
Except no: in Orr mobs anally raped you by sheer number, respawn timer and stupid amount of CC they tossed at you, not talking about lifelong conditions applied in droves. End result? If there is no event running (where *sometimes* you find other people), most players prefer to die alone than win in groups. It's ingrained in people brains now and it's not easy to get them to come out of the tunnel of the solo-drug.

Painful.
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Orr was good, I give you that. It clearly said "what are you doing here alone retard, come with a group".

Unfortunately it was nerfed to death and is now a park area for picking berries. Because Anet was still on the make it easier and they give you their money stance that has dominated the last decade and still is. Hence why I said it's too late for GW2 to switch to challenge outside of instances/scripts. That's why I hope by the time EQN takes a recognizable shape (sometime in 2016), the pendulum has swung towards making stuff challenging because the audience demands to be butt-raped. Some recent games like Dark souls or Day Z (no idea personally) had success with that. Such a hope is a long shot, but what else do we have.
 
Mr Creed

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Regarding everyone being a hybrid of a dozen classes simultaneously, keep in mind you only have 8 skills. I think in most games when you faced the difficult challenges it was better to bring the specialized class for each job over the hybrid that half-asses two jobs at once. So (again assuming) for difficult content you probably want your tank to load the taunts/stuns/knockdowns instead of tooling around with the ineffective but cool throwing star skill. Same for other roles.
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

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Mr Creed_sl said:
That's kinda right, although I feel alot of people underestimate the difference a great group makes in GW2.
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We had that discussion a few months ago, didn't we? In this very thread, I'm sure.

So I'll restate the problem. For a group-oriented combat, you need:

One. Sharply defined roles that can be assigned to people (either by class, or spec, or build, whatever). They don't have to be Tank, Heal, CC, Slower, they just need to exist.

Two. Roles that complement each other (the healer allows the tank to work, the CCer reduces the load on tank and heal to manageable, etc).

Three. Roles that are highly visible. That's where the "condition applier", or "might distributor" of GW2 fails. Because if it's not visible, then the average players will not discover its existence (and, if told, will not understand its function or usefulness).

And four: Strategies based around those roles remain relatively stable for the vast majority of fights. If you need a different set of strategies for every single fight, you've lost the vast majorities of players. If you need a different set of strategies for all combination of classes, you've lost as well.

The ultimate truth is: the average player is going to learn a handful of synergies based around very simple personal strategies (tank's health goes down a bit, I HOT. Tank's health goes down a lot, I Complete Heal). Anything more, and that content is going to be "hardcore" and not available to the majority of them.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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Ukerric,

Good post and I do remember hearing this argument. I agree with all of the above but believe players can adjust strategies better than you believe. Feign pulling was a horrible exploit but a damn great strategy. Most high end dungeons and raids need different strategies and I think this can be expanded on and should be. Also, I hope that this 'hardcore' content should still be available to people who want to experience it or attempt it in different ways. EQN shouldn't pander to the lowest denominator but probably will. Hopefully later in the game's cycle.
 
Mr Creed

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I agree with those points and that they are the state of the industry - all of them point in one direction though: accessability. Tread lightly, dont challenge the slow-witted or they withdraw their money. If EQN came out in 2014 it would be the same. Like I said I have the faint hope that by 2016 for their beta the audience will have changed somewhat.

zzeris_sl said:
Also, I hope that this 'hardcore' content should still be available to people who want to experience it or attempt it in different ways. EQN shouldn't pander to the lowest denominator but probably will. Hopefully later in the game's cycle.
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EQN is a mass market product, if the "dumb it down" mentality is still seen as the best way to people's money in two years this project will go down that path from day 1. I might be wrong there but I think the playerbase might be shifting. WoW itself (which imo set the trend of dumbing down for mass market appeal) is getting old, everything it spawned has failed miserably, and indie stuff like Day Z is raking in the money. If this trend continues, we might get some challenge in this thing. If not, write it off as a fun "collect all the classes" pokemon variant.
 
B

Bellringer_sl

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Any thoughts from you ravenous trolls about removing the pure DPS and simply have every other role do potentially the same dps (according to player skill level)?


Edit: referring to PVE specifically here.
 
Mr Creed

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Absolutely in favor for any game, have mentioned it in various armchair dev threads. In current gen MMOs all classes can dps anyway, classes that are one-dimensional and limited to dps only dont need to exist.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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Mr Creed,

I agree but I'm also hoping that with EQNL being MMO lite and also offering combat and PvP options, that they will try to limit the carebear to that game. As you mention, shifting desires will hopefully encourage them to make EQN pretty difficult. One option I believe they will provide to the masses is the city events and any world bosses. These events could be too difficult for anyone with a certain size of group. As mentioned in the novellas, killing dragons is extremely rare and difficult to accomplish. Maybe, to kill a world dragon, it will normally take a ton of people like GW2 did early and then be adjusted later as guilds get more organized and proficient. Also some world bosses could of course be tougher, etc. Allow some early carebear and usually around new cities. As you move further from civilization and maybe closer to the core areas of dragon influence, the game should ramp much higher. I was encouraged that SOE is going away from children's games.

Edit- I agree with Creed here. Optimize varying skillsets but have everyone be a DPS class. Make your classes have useful abilities. Being a 'DPS' class is lazy design.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

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One think I hope is that the EQN world is fucking huge and has less servers. With them having help building stuff and directed random generation of areas that then just need artist passes for some details, could we approach something like only having a dozen servers for millions of players? I really love EVE for the all-in-one server.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Lleauaric_sl said:
You really dont need predefined roles if encounters are designed to demand different jobs. People will conform to what is needed. Classes are limited to only be able to do a limited number of things.
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We expect the content to need the roles we've agreed to play. If the roles we've agreed to play are 'anything that's needed whenever' that really means people will complain an encounter is too hard when it doesn't allow the 90% of people who want to play tv-watching-dps to defeat the encounter. A small percent of gamers will conform to roles needed, but the majority will just get confused when they picked the most 'fun' role that is self-healing pew-pew-pew-assploshun and content becomes too hard.

At least with pre-defined roles, you had to have, on some level, agreed that was a role you were willing to fill and prepared to undertake, and the devs can reasonably assume we're expecting content to require those roles. Then, players will STILL conform to what's needed, just with a higher baseline expectation when it comes to both content and class roles.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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koffin_sl said:
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Nice to have in this thread. I don't know the strategy going forward on starting cities but prefer the original concept of actually having to move 'the war machine' to the original site, winning a battle, and then rebuilding the city. Hopefully, building will be similar to EQL and people have space to build their own 'home' in a small plot. Have some major POI completed by NPCs, quests, etc and then leave some of the land for player built growth. After the city is won back, then all future players can get there from the starting isle.

I prefer the game to start like EQ2. Have a short intro stop off isle where beginning players learn the game before they hit the mainland. Early players go to the starting beach-head and then the war machine founds a major city(one the developers might like to be an Orgrimmar). Then, people just branch out to other cities and make it player driven which ones are rebuilt first. They do not have to be as difficult as the 'intro' rebuild so that racial cities can be in very early. I don't think this will happen because people really suck at gaming and organization but I can hope. That will always be the hardest part of making an MMO. KISS for the vast majority of gamers who are mouth breathers.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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Carl_sl said:
I hope everyone is tempering their expectations when they say things like EQN will be hard.
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I don't think it will be hugely difficult but I'm hoping for it to be at least as difficult as Vanilla was in 2004. I think they want to up the difficulty closer to EQ and the trends really do allow them to initially push this. It really is up to the player-base though. No surprise there. We can only hope they have a much better system than GW2 had. They have the experience and an example of what not to do. If the game is fun and we enjoy the difficulty, we have to make sure we are heard. Anyone that has played a few MMOs should have already tempered future expectations. It's still exciting to see someone do things different and have some balls. Exciting and unexpected.
 
Dyvim

Dyvim

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Carl_sl said:
I hope everyone is tempering their expectations when they say things like EQN will be hard.
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We all know what the definition of hard is in 2014:

You wont be able to finish the cutscene introducing your "boss" encounter which you will kill afterwards via 2 button smashing for 10 secs.
 
Quaid

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Is anyone planning on going to SOE live this year? I'm thinking about it... But haven't decided yet. Wouldn't mind hitting up the Vegas restaurant scene. Also, I've never shot an automatic rifle, and I hear you can do that there :p

Did anyone attend last year? Is it as painfully dorky as it looks?
 
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