EQ TLP - Mischief (Free Trade / Random Loot)

Sieger · Jul 11, 2021

A lot of stuff you are saying in that convo, and the timestamps involved, don't make sense to me. For one we never killed TVK in our DZ, we never even got that far. For two, our DZ had already expired by the time stamps in this convo.

I literally have this time stamp from our officer chat with Alex saying we need someone to log in and play you:

Diogenes — 03/24/2019
@Kith
[10:04 PM]
no he's not
[10:04 PM]
ref: cuk
[10:04 PM]
we need someone to play him if we can
[10:04 PM]
necros are significant dps on boss fights
[10:04 PM]
esp with our gear lvl

I think you were gone a lot longer than 20 minutes. Now, I also see some evidence from officer chat that the next day you were able to make the skip with a better mount:

It also doesn't jive with the fact that you offered to give me that account to recoup plat which the only thing of value I remember us ever giving you was the Rhino mount

I'll be honest you claiming you didn't get a rhino actually blows my mind. You're maintaining it enough that I partially think maybe I could be wrong, but then it doesn't jive with other things I see in my logs--and like you're telling Zaide you were at the raid in a DM at the same time Alex is saying we need someone to play you because you're not there. I'm not sure if maybe you were ashamed of stuff back then and cover to Zaide or what happened. I'm also confused why you were trying to reimburse me if I hadn't given you a mount.

Also this is your first jump back for us at 12:30am, long after our DZ had closed, which confuses me as to how you were telling zaide you were "in the raid" hours before

Sieger · Jul 11, 2021

Also let's be clear a little bit, the mount helps you get across the geometry, that is part of, but certainly not the critical part, of the skip. You actually maybe don't remember, but you made the skip several times, you just died every single time to mobs. You have to both get through geometry, and get to the safe spot to rez a corpse to then start cothing people over, when you died every time on the other side, you weren't executing. I do think we've gotten pretty far down into the weeds on this, and there's actually a bigger story to tell anyway, I never made it out that your fucking up on the skips was the dealbreaker. What I said was putting it in the hands of one person was a mistake (by me), but what I have to stand by is it's real hard for you to say we weren't trying when you couldn't even stay for the whole raid. Did you have a good reason? Sure. I bet Zurdula had a good reason not to contest most OW mobs on Agnarr. I bet OGC had good reasons on Phinny. If we're going to be beating our chests calling ourselves alpha, you don't get protection for leaving a key raid in the middle of the most important raid of launch, like for someone who did that to then be talking shit on the forums is kinda wild.

Also further down in officer chat I see you telling us you made the skip with the mount, which my assumption was that's the rhino mount? I dunno.

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

im central time -- i dont know how that plays into it -- I think you are east coast. i wasn't in the raid the entire time but I was in zone trying to get the skip done still. it was a shitty night I would need to go back and check more logs on specifically when I afk'd 2+ years ago I am sure you will grant me that. the more important point is I definitely didn't have a rhino mount -- that would have trivialized the entire thing. i got cash from ansel / taladir / resilient and my static and also you and bought what I could in the moment. you can ask any of them --- I think you still have contact with ansel don't you?

and my comment about the plat DOES JIVE with paying you guys back. we liquidated krono and all this other shit last minute to buy a luclin horse.

here is more:
keep my login if u need to use that necro for the skips

[1:12 PM]
i wont be on for a bit

[1:12 PM]
im doing fine

[1:12 PM]
i closed on my house last week

[1:12 PM]
so im in the middle of a delayed move

[1:12 PM]
and work busy as fuck

[1:12 PM]
but ill eb back around some

[1:13 PM]
dont hand the login around too much

[1:13 PM]
since its like instant self doxxing

[1:13 PM]
i didnt ever bid on anything cause i wont be on for a bit

[1:13 PM]
didnt want to take stuff away from people

[1:14 PM]
the 20k mount works for skip

[1:14 PM]
but anything less wont work

this was in real time that night --

sieger — 03/24/2019

what's going on

[11:20 PM]
lol ricky DMed me said you were training him

trg — 03/24/2019

they got in there with a warder still up

[11:31 PM]
i dont know if it worked or not

sieger — 03/24/2019

nah they got AHR

[11:36 PM]
i wouldn't worry about it dude

[11:36 PM]
we did what we could

[11:38 PM]
are you done playing you think

trg — 03/24/2019

like super scaled back

[11:38 PM]
best case

[11:38 PM]
but that was always the plan

[11:38 PM]
i was here for launch really

[11:39 PM]
so its not cause we lost or anything

[11:39 PM]
this was always the plan

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

we are getting autistically into the weeds at this point -- jogging my memory -- I did eventually make the jump with the shitter horse and was ready to summon. it didn't really matter at that point because it was pretty much too late. i think you guys said after so much time had passed that you didn't want to fuck with the raid and summon -- which I agree with you on speaking frankly -- we were way late into it. i may have logged after that I don't remember tbh I would need to go check logs-- after it was me going to try to train out

I think we can both agree that so much time had passed it was effectively pointless. i don't have the logs in front of me but I think your memory is agreeing with mine on all points except your rhino theory -- I am pretty sure the timestamps even line up if you account for the fact that I am central while you are east coast.

i do appreciate you acknowledging the fact that you may be misremembering -- I remember the horse issue well personally because I spent hours dealing with it directly. the truth is it was an area that we got fucked on by DBG ganking the store mount and despite me asking was never addressed as a contingency beyond that -- we tried our best to deal with it in the end and it didn't work out.

[9:35 PM]
im trying to get third floor skip

[9:35 PM]
with the shittiest store mount

[9:35 PM]
cause we did that shit last minute

[9:35 PM]

Mahes · Jul 11, 2021

Sterling · Jul 11, 2021

I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone for this fine reading material.

Sieger · Jul 11, 2021

What I would say about the horse issue Cuk is the fact you were actually able to cross over the geometry alive and were still dying, like at that point the horse isn't relevant. To actually execute the skip you have to get over the geometry, and a fast mount helps with that, but then you have to get in position with a Magician corpse to do the skip, which would not be possible if the necro was dying on the other side. At the end of the day I do remember you saying the horse you had was fine, and I do remember Kith giving you and Artemesa rhinos. If we didn't give you a rhino, it was not because you didn't ask for one, it would have been because you never said you needed a faster horse to do the skip. Since you were actualy getting across the gap and dying, I don't know that the rhino even was the breaking point anyway.

To take it to the actual next level--the thing we actually referenced with Artemesa later that I think you didn't fully realize from that convo, is the skip you were trying to do which was directly into a room with a boss that was killing you, was not even the right skip. That was a skip for basically a different thing. We (and I'm included in this) actually were given bad info by Coirnav people about what was and was not possible in terms of bosses needed to be killed to do a warder alive AHR. We were told several bosses if left up, left so many warders up you couldn't kill it, Amtrak knew better because they had better information than we did. In our testing on test server, the info people gave us, seemed to produce a scenario where we could kill warder alive aten. It would have, but it also meant two additional bosses than Amtrak killed. There was just a serious knowledge gap there, it's hard to know what you don't know, and we didn't have good sources of information helping us. What we learned the next week is the skip you were even trying to do wasn't even the right path to be taking for what was going on, like that was how off base we were. If we had even been able to coth the people to the room you were skipping too, we still likely wouldn't have won, because we didn't know we could skip two more bosses and given how bad we actually did in our DZ, we would have taken so long to get through those bosses + AHR we just wouldn't have finished in 6 hours.

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

Sieger said:
What I would say about the horse issue Cuk is the fact you were actually able to cross over the geometry alive and were still dying, like at that point the horse isn't relevant. To actually execute the skip you have to get over the geometry, and a fast mount helps with that, but then you have to get in position with a Magician corpse to do the skip, which would not be possible if the necro was dying on the other side. At the end of the day I do remember you saying the horse you had was fine, and I do remember Kith giving you and Artemesa rhinos. If we didn't give you a rhino, it was not because you didn't ask for one, it would have been because you never said you needed a faster horse to do the skip. Since you were actualy getting across the gap and dying, I don't know that the rhino even was the breaking point anyway.

To take it to the actual next level--the thing we actually referenced with Artemesa later that I think you didn't fully realize from that convo, is the skip you were trying to do which was directly into a room with a boss that was killing you, was not even the right skip. That was a skip for basically a different thing. We (and I'm included in this) actually were given bad info by Coirnav people about what was and was not possible in terms of bosses needed to be killed to do a warder alive AHR. We were told several bosses if left up, left so many warders up you couldn't kill it, Amtrak knew better because they had better information than we did. In our testing on test server, the info people gave us, seemed to produce a scenario where we could kill warder alive aten. It would have, but it also meant two additional bosses than Amtrak killed. There was just a serious knowledge gap there, it's hard to know what you don't know, and we didn't have good sources of information helping us. What we learned the next week is the skip you were even trying to do wasn't even the right path to be taking for what was going on, like that was how off base we were. If we had even been able to coth the people to the room you were skipping too, we still likely wouldn't have won, because we didn't know we could skip two more bosses and given how bad we actually did in our DZ, we would have taken so long to get through those bosses + AHR we just wouldn't have finished in 6 hours.

In this post I largely agree. Now we are getting pretty close to on the same page. The big picture that you mention is pretty much spot on and ultimately describes one small point as to why we should have stayed open world (the whole point of racing aside).

Minor details -- no rhinos. my success rate of crossing the zone geometry with the slow horse was laughably low -- and was not what we tested. i did eventually make it alive but by the time I did it was too late -- and to your point it wasn't the right skip.

we had the other skips as well (first tower- I never had the second one down) and tested but you guys sent me here because you were deciding to clear in while I tried those skips to save time. it was a double last effort hail mary.

i hope you can move beyond the "I'm a plant" type bullshit and personal attacks on me by now for me saying I feel like we left some stuff on the table. I don’t think I’ll ever agree on an epic server wide race leaving a zone where we were going head to head dps racing to fuck around in instances - repercussions be damned.

Cinge · Jul 11, 2021

Holy shit 2 pages about shit that was years ago. Jesus christ. ITS A VIDEO GAME!

I feel like I am watching 2 people that broke up forever ago but had no clue why and now they are airing their dirty laundry in public as they run into each other years later.

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

Cinge said:
Holy shit 2 pages about shit that was years ago. Jesus christ. ITS A VIDEO GAME!

Classic Everquest. I am genuinely surprised he got so mad about my dima comment since he told me that’s who he was talking to about building his selos strategy and it basically worked out for him in the long run. not typical sieger lol

Sieger · Jul 11, 2021

Keep in mind no one put losing the race on you, I just said having you as a single point of failure was a mistake. The point I'm making is I didn't cuck out in any of our raids, I was there for all of them in the launch. You had to dip out of the most important raid. There's a reason I've literally never brought it up until today, and that's because today you made a post that was suggesting I basically didn't show up to win. When the launch was over you posted this in officer Discord:

I respected everything you said there, and my hope was you'd remember that you had a part to play in why we lost. Not to shame you, but to maybe make you reflect that posting out putting it on us isn't exactly a balanced view of things.

That being said I have legitimately never blamed anyone who helped me for Luclin launch with our losing the AHR race. A ton of people actually wanted to put all the blame on Zaide, because right after launch he had to go away for like two months and he was an easy target. There's contingents of ex-Faceless people who aren't big fans of Zaide and were on board with this. I've always pushed back against that, Zaide had 0 to do with the loss. I've also always maintained that Alex put in tons of hard work for us in that launch, he bounced to Amtrak after and people accused him of things etc, but I never bought into that either. I don't really think any of us weren't trying. There were things we weren't willing to do, and in that vein it's silly to pretend at least some of those things didn't involve warp trains / far taunts etc. We actually had former Amtrak members in our guild for like 1.5 years after the merge, including some of the former RI guys who actually did a lot of the MQ2 cheating, who told us specific details of things they did. We can pretend here on the forums none of that had a part to play and that's fine, but that's just a fiction.

Now, because there were things we could have done differently to win in spite of their cheating, I still view it as on me and the decisions I made, but I stand by a lot of those decisions because they were part of a bigger plan. Some of the specific mistakes were just simple mistakes that with perfect knowledge would not have been made. If I had raided on Coirnav for a year leading up to Selo I think things would've gone far differently. If we had the top raid guild on Coirnav helping us I think things would've gone a lot differently too, but that's all fine.

At the end of the day I chose to not make a guild for you, because you were there for 2 weeks, I made a guild for the people who were committed to two years.

Sieger · Jul 11, 2021

Cinge said:
Holy shit 2 pages about shit that was years ago. Jesus christ. ITS A VIDEO GAME!

I feel like I am watching 2 people that broke up forever ago but had no clue why and now they are airing their dirty laundry in public as they run into each other years later.

Bro put your autism shaming shit away. You've been saying "this is my last TLP" since Agnarr. You may not have as deep level autism as me and cuk, but you have ENOUGH Autism you shouldn't be throwing stones.

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

Sieger said:
Keep in mind no one put losing the race on you, I just said having you as a single point of failure was a mistake. The point I'm making is I didn't cuck out in any of our raids, I was there for all of them in the launch. You had to dip out of the most important raid. There's a reason I've literally never brought it up until today, and that's because today you made a post that was suggesting I basically didn't show up to win. When the launch was over you posted this in officer Discord:

View attachment 362015

I respected everything you said there, and my hope was you'd remember that you had a part to play in why we lost. Not to shame you, but to maybe make you reflect that posting out putting it on us isn't exactly a balanced view of things.

That being said I have legitimately never blamed anyone who helped me for Luclin launch with our losing the AHR race. A ton of people actually wanted to put all the blame on Zaide, because right after launch he had to go away for like two months and he was an easy target. There's contingents of ex-Faceless people who aren't big fans of Zaide and were on board with this. I've always pushed back against that, Zaide had 0 to do with the loss. I've also always maintained that Alex put in tons of hard work for us in that launch, he bounced to Amtrak after and people accused him of things etc, but I never bought into that either. I don't really think any of us weren't trying. There were things we weren't willing to do, and in that vein it's silly to pretend at least some of those things didn't involve warp trains / far taunts etc. We actually had former Amtrak members in our guild for like 1.5 years after the merge, including some of the former RI guys who actually did a lot of the MQ2 cheating, who told us specific details of things they did. We can pretend here on the forums none of that had a part to play and that's fine, but that's just a fiction.

Now, because there were things we could have done differently to win in spite of their cheating, I still view it as on me and the decisions I made, but I stand by a lot of those decisions because they were part of a bigger plan. Some of the specific mistakes were just simple mistakes that with perfect knowledge would not have been made. If I had raided on Coirnav for a year leading up to Selo I think things would've gone far differently. If we had the top raid guild on Coirnav helping us I think things would've gone a lot differently too, but that's all fine.

At the end of the day I chose to not make a guild for you, because you were there for 2 weeks, I made a guild for the people who were committed to two years.

When I talk about my efforts I think you will ultimately realize I probably put more efforts than almost anyone else into that launch. And I meant everything I said there- and I acknowledge your intentions in your last paragraphs about not making the guild for me- and while I disagree with you on the decisions made at several points (the biggest being crawling to instances) I did and continue to respect the decision and history played out on it. You ultimately accomplished exactly what you set out to do on selos and So I can’t really fault you for that.

Stupid details on horses aside - We ultimately mainly disagree on where the race was lost. I would posit when we went to instances or when we lost in VT. You would argue that it was when we failed skips in the instance. Different points of view same result- we lost. That’s the main bit I carried with me - ultimately walking away from an open world race, and the decisions that lead up to that so my perspective was that I did not dip out in the most important raid - we collectively dipped out of the most important raid - ow.

If we had prepped properly and Amtrak went to instance to win against us out of ow there would have been a huge asterisk on their win. ultimately we lost to them there

there’s really not much else either of us can say on the topic -

DickTrickle · Jul 11, 2021

Not the faceless drama I expected, but the faceless drama we deserve.

Sterling · Jul 11, 2021

Sieger said:
Bro put your autism shaming shit away. You've been saying "this is my last TLP" since Agnarr. You may not have as deep level autism as me and cuk, but you have ENOUGH Autism you shouldn't be throwing stones.

People declaring a certain thing being a line too far is a tradition in EQ. It's a lot like how everyone feels about people that drive slower or faster than they do on the roads.

Cinge · Jul 11, 2021

Sieger said:
Bro put your autism shaming shit away. You've been saying "this is my last TLP" since Agnarr. You may not have as deep level autism as me and cuk, but you have ENOUGH Autism you shouldn't be throwing stones.

They keep coming out with servers that are interesting! Selos and lately mishcief. Though the latter didn't last as long, too much greed for me. I had the fortitude to skip mangler/aradune(nothing interesting about them).

Also I blame the rest of the mmo industry. Give me something else to occupy my time!

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

Sieger while we are wrapping up you may enjoy the whole irl story - I had a 10 month old at the time. My wife flipped her shit on me and then left and left the 10 month old with me right in the middle of the beginning of the raid. I tried to keep going but the kid almost hurt himself and then was freaking out on me and the whole thing with threats of divorce , walking out, and the kid sitting there screaming at me frazzled me and flipped the switch - that’s why I logged for about 20 minutes.

Even though, as you said, it ultimately wouldn’t have mattered for all the bad data, wrong horses, etc we had - And we were doing largely pointless seconds skips- we weren’t going to win anyways at that point. I am sure you can probably appreciate I wasn’t happy with the outcome either.

fun eq stories lol.

quality reading material over

DickTrickle · Jul 11, 2021

Anytime you can almost get a divorce because of choosing EQ, you have to do it.

Cukernaut · Jul 11, 2021

DickTrickle said:
Anytime you can almost get a divorce because of choosing EQ, you have to do it.

your not wrong.

I had my chance at being an eq career man and I ruined it the moment I got married. It literally all goes back to that Lmfao

I actually explained the whole situation to my wife today and she said we were gay for leaving open world. Hahaha

Sieger · Jul 11, 2021

Lol I honestly said I was done since this had worked itself out, but I was talking it over with some people and I think we actually lost because we got behind on shard farming and they got into VT a full day before us. I think that's the real key. Them having a DZ that had an AHR free to engage in it, that was opening in x hours, gave them a huge advantage. That advantage was created because they keyed faster, they keyed faster at least in significant part because they were able to start keying very early on, because they knew who was getting keyed. Yerm was talking about it once when he was in our Selo guild and said the people who knew they needed to get keys, at least some of them, farmed some of their shards quite early on, before the Emp Keying push even, that put them something like 30% ahead of us on shards the night both guilds killed Emperor. We went very hard with a big zerg and lots of picks to try and close that gap, but we didn't get that done. That's honestly the decisive moment. If you think about it logically, if we had zoned into OW with a raid that had higher DPS, what was our real play? Beat them in DPS races and they just go "man we lost that sucks." Nah, they'd have trained us out long before we got to AHR, turning OW Into an unusuable train fest until their DZ opened and they went in to finish clearing.

Now sure, we could've stayed in OW and fucked with them, but I don't actually see how it gets a win on the table, they weren't going to take a straight DPS race loss standing imo, like they warp trained us on High Priest of Ssra lol, they weren't gonna warp train us out of VT if we had the force? Now maybe in some people's minds, given the behaviors involved, we should've fucked around in OW to force them into DZ, I guess to me that still is a loss, so what's the point. Training to win is one thing, training for no reason is another. Doing so when you still have SOME chance in DZ, albeit a smaller one, seems foolish to me in retrospect, I'm not even sure looking back why we even went into OW, we should've just done our DZ and if we saw them making too much progress in OW trained them out, but the reality is since we couldn't beat it in DZ and they could do so earlier than us, we basically were not in a very winnable scenario at that particular point.

EQ TLP - Mischief (Free Trade / Random Loot)

Trakanon Raider

Trakanon Raider

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

sieger — 03/24/2019​

trg — 03/24/2019​

sieger — 03/24/2019​

trg — 03/24/2019​

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

El Presidente

Trakanon Raider

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

Trakanon Raider

Trakanon Raider

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler

El Presidente

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler

Sharpie Markers Aren't Pens

Trakanon Raider

sieger — 03/24/2019

trg — 03/24/2019

sieger — 03/24/2019

trg — 03/24/2019