Equal Pay for Equal Work?

ShakyJake

ShakyJake

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Generally speaking, the term "equal pay for equal work" is used in the context of sexual discrimination. But I have an interesting situation -- could this discrimination be applied to other factors, namely, education?

Here's the situation: a couple years back I was promoted to a software engineering position. Previously I was in operations and, of course, the pay is significantly less than what engineers earn. Upon promotion I was given about a 20% pay increase. However, I learned just recently that it is still significantly less than what the other engineers earn (one in particularly was hired shortly before my promotion so it's not a factor of seniority).

What's been striking is that in regards to performance and knowledge I blow most of these guys away. It would be different if I was truly a junior and unable to contribute much. But it's been quite the opposite. I often take lead on projects and, if I had been absent, there would have been either significant delays in getting a release out or the team would have needed to pull in external resources to get shit done.

It was implied that since I do not have an engineering degree that it justifies the lower compensation. However, whether I earned that piece of paper two decades ago is completely irrelevant to my performance. Clearly it has not helped these other guys. So I'm wondering would the argument of "equal pay for equal work" apply in this situation? It's not sexual discrimination, obviously, but educational discrimination.
 
Izo

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Is it fair to reward those who did not spend time getting appropriate degrees? In some fields, maybe. Yours? Good question.
 
hodj

hodj

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That diploma is actually worth something bro.

Regardless whether you can do the same work as them without it, in the universe we live in, no one cares.

Dude next door to me could get an immediate promotion if he could just do algebra well enough to get a BA in literally any field, but he can't, so he doesn't.

Shit sucks but its reality.

They spent two/four years getting an AA/AS/BA/BS in a field, they get a higher rate of pay as a result. Its not discrimination in the sense of unfair discrimination, because its not based on your race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

My suggestion would be to ask your employer if you were to pursue and acquire an online BA in your field, if that would allow you to be raised to parity with others who have that degree. If so, then look into something like a DeVry or Sullivan type online learning fast track degree program where they won't make you grind out a bunch of bullshit classes you don't need like english and shit, so you can get the degree in as short a time as possible.

Or don't. Whatever.
 
ShakyJake

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Well, I am pursuing a degree so it's not like I'm just sitting here doing nothing and fuming over it. I mostly just shocked at how incompetent a lot of these degree holders are and the fact that they are earning way more than I. It's a serious injustice. But, as you say, it's the world we live in. It's also the way they perpetuate the ridiculous educational system in our country.
 
hodj

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ShakyJake_sl said:
I mostly just shocked at how incompetent a lot of these degree holders are and the fact that they are earning way more than I. It's a serious injustice.
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Cs get degrees, lol.

Literally some of these people probably graduated with just slightly over a 2.0 GPA, and no one cares. Its silly shit, but it is what it is.
 
S

Silence_sl

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Your coworkers are better at striking a deal than you are, and it's discrimination?

You have a high school education, and it's discrimination because college graduates get paid more than you do?

What planet are you from?
 
wormie

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Switch jobs. Your years of experience and projects worked on are more important than some degree at this point. (unless you work in a very specialized field, then you are SOL). Your problem has been solved.
 
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Corndog

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The degree means nothing to your current employer because they know your skill set. It means everything to someone who doesn't know you. So right now you could try and strongarm the current company. If they know they will lose money without you, you'll get your raise. If they think you are not the magic piece. They'll turn you lose and you'll be forced to convince someone else that your have skills not paper.

The only way to get around this is to run your own business.
 
Palum

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If only you were a woman, black or openly practiced a non-Christian religion.
 
Khane

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Corndog_sl said:
The degree means nothing to your current employer because they know your skill set. It means everything to someone who doesn't know you. So right now you could try and strongarm the current company. If they know they will lose money without you, you'll get your raise. If they think you are not the magic piece. They'll turn you lose and you'll be forced to convince someone else that your have skills not paper.

The only way to get around this is to run your own business.
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This is not true in the software field. Degree doesn't mean much after you've gotten real world experience under your belt unless the interviewing company has a stick up their ass. In which case I wouldn't recommend working for them.

How long have you held your current title Jake? And how many years of experience do you have software engineering?
 
Noodleface

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Engineering isn't typically run in a way where "x position gets paid y salary." Instead it's based on a ton of outside factors: what type of degree do they hold, what real world experience do they possess, are they experts in a field, etc. There are also salary negotiations during the hiring process.

From the sounds of it, you were promoted at your job to a development level but expected to be paid the same right off the bat.

If you're not getting paid commensurately, then you need to start fielding other employers. Don't be surprised if not having a degree is a bit of a stumbling block for some places though. There are even certain companies that won't look at a resume without a Masters.
 
Tuco

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You're a product and your value is determined by who will pay you. If you feel you're being underpaid you have to make your employers believe you are willing and able to work elsewhere for more money.

How do you do this? tough call.
 
ShakyJake

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I've been in a coding position for five years. I've been on an actual software engineering team for nearly two now. I also hold a MCP certification (yeah, I know, those don't mean much).

Truthfully, I really didn't "expect" anything. And I certainly wasn't going to make salary demands right off the bat considering my lack of a degree. I was grateful I got the position. The only thing I desired was to gain actual software development experience and in, say, a couple years start looking around. The company I work for is pretty shitty and I don't see much of a future for them.

Again, I was just sorta floored at how mediocre a lot of these devs are. I mean, if this is representative of most software developers then, damn, if Ihadobtained a CS degree 2 decades ago I have no doubt I'd be working for Apple or Google by this point.
 
Shonuff

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ShakyJake_sl said:
Generally speaking, the term "equal pay for equal work" is used in the context of sexual discrimination. But I have an interesting situation -- could this discrimination be applied to other factors, namely, education?

Here's the situation: a couple years back I was promoted to a software engineering position. Previously I was in operations and, of course, the pay is significantly less than what engineers earn. Upon promotion I was given about a 20% pay increase. However, I learned just recently that it is still significantly less than what the other engineers earn (one in particularly was hired shortly before my promotion so it's not a factor of seniority).

What's been striking is that in regards to performance and knowledge I blow most of these guys away. It would be different if I was truly a junior and unable to contribute much. But it's been quite the opposite. I often take lead on projects and, if I had been absent, there would have been either significant delays in getting a release out or the team would have needed to pull in external resources to get shit done.

It was implied that since I do not have an engineering degree that it justifies the lower compensation. However, whether I earned that piece of paper two decades ago is completely irrelevant to my performance. Clearly it has not helped these other guys. So I'm wondering would the argument of "equal pay for equal work" apply in this situation? It's not sexual discrimination, obviously, but educational discrimination.
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You didn't get a degree, but you want to make as much as the degreed people do, that took time out of the workforce and spent money? Good luck with that. When I got my graduate degree, people were spending $150k+ in lost wages, tution and room and board. Empirically, in a negotiation, people tend to get paid for their sunk costs in a completed deal. They demand what they've lost, and get it, or don't work at that Employer. It's like this. I got my graduate degree from a top 20 school. Top 20 schools aren't cheap, in any field. Some company offered me $70k a year, and I told them the offer was so low as to be insulting. My school's initial average pay was double that. You can't buy a stamp for less than 49 cents. You either pay what the stamp cost, or your envelope doesn't get mailed. You don't have a standard like that to be able demand equal pay, or do you?

The only way you'll be able to do this (other than getting a degree) is to get a competitor to bid your value up. If your employer says they won't match, you go work for the competitor. Once you have the salary history at that level, you are golden. The problem with this scenario, is that you have to prove to said competitor the same thing that you need to prove to your current employer. That you are every bit the equal of the degreed guys.
 
ShakyJake

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Lyrical_sl said:
You didn't get a degree, but you want to make as much as the degreed people do, that took time out of the workforce and spent money? Good luck with that
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Let me get this straight: you have two individuals applying for thesameposition. One has a degree, the other does not. However, both individuals, given their work experience, are equally qualified for the job. However, because the degree holder "took time out of the workfoce and spent money" automatically entitles him to greater pay? I call bullshit on that. Granted, maybe thatisreality, but that's bullshit. As a employer I don't give a shit if you spent a crap ton of money on a education at some highfalutin university. All I care about is if you cando the damn job. If the two people are equally capable then the pay should be exactly the same.
 
Shonuff

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ShakyJake_sl said:
Granted, maybe thatisreality, but that's bullshit.
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Reality: in a capitalistic society, if people have sunk costs, they tend to get them back (if a deal comes to equilibrium).

It is 100% reality, and you are going to have to do something to get your employer's attention, whether it's by being that much better than everyone else, or getting a competitor to bid your value higher.

Sitting around bitching about it won't change it. You can, A) get a degree, B) stick around a few years until they perceive your value is as good, or C) get an offer from a competitor. There aren't much more options than that. If you are looking for some sort of law that applies, I don't think there is one.
 
wormie

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Keep in mind lyrical prunes trees and knows zero about software development
 
Palum

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Lyrical_sl said:
Reality: in a capitalistic society, if people have sunk costs, they tend to get them back (if a deal comes to equilibrium).

It is 100% reality, and you are going to have to do something to get your employer's attention, whether it's by being that much better than everyone else, or getting a competitor to bid your value higher.

Sitting around bitching about it won't change it. You can, A) get a degree, B) stick around a few years until they perceive your value is as good, or C) get an offer from a competitor. There aren't much more options than that. If you are looking for some sort of law that applies, I don't think there is one.
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Yep. Just remember everyone is replaceable, the important thing is how much does it cost to replace you? If you cannot prove that to your employer (or potential employer), you aren't getting what you should be compensated. The thing is, most people areterribleat selling themselves and/or making a compelling business argument for their value. It's really not hard, but sorry, "I'm just better than them" is not going to sell your case. You go to your PM with hours and $$ and show value, you have a chance at getting paid properly.

I think the largest hurdle is some companies (or should I say managers with archaic business attitudes) don't really care about value so much as they do 'old school reasonableness' for pay increases. IE, they will try and get away paying 2-5% increases because 'that was good in my day' (even though it likely wasn't at this point, those people are long retired/dead). They would rather lose a stellar asset and retain their outmoded concept than pay FMV. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.
 
Shonuff

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wormie_sl said:
Keep in mind lyrical prunes trees and knows zero about software development
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And I was an Executive at a Fortune 10 company by the time I was 30. Most successful people know what they are worth and how to get it. If I was in his shoes, I'd either get competitive offers or be patient. I remember when I was first put at that level, I was underpaid also, compared to my peers. I had to wait five years to get equal pay. It took pay raises of 10% a year for those ten years to get there. I was unable to generate competitive offers, as I didn't have enough time at that level. No one wants to take a chance on a guy that just got there (at least in the industry I was in). I stopped whining when I couldn't get the competition to pay me more, and had to just sit still and wait my turn. Finally I figured out that you only get what you are worth by owning your own thing, as someone else said in the thread earlier.

P.S.: When I'm full staffed, pruning trees nets me in one day what I made in a week at a corporation, I like it just fine.
 
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