Everquest Legends

Kirun

Kirun

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moonarchia said:
It's the definition of winning that causes it to be a variable. There is no actual 'win' condition on a solo server. You are not in competition for anything with anyone else. There is no tangible benefit from reaching max level or anything before others. It's like using nitro on an empty racetrack.
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I get the argument, but I think this is where people get way too hung up on the literal word "winning" in P2W and end up talking themselves into weird semantic corners. MMORPGs generally do not have a traditional "you win" screen. By this logic, almost nothing in an MMO could ever be P2W unless the cash shop literally mailed you a credits roll and deleted your character afterward. "Winning" in MMO terminology has always referred to gaining gameplay advantages, progression advantages, efficiency advantages, or competitive advantages through spending money.

Now, I do agree that server design massively changes how impactful those advantages are. Rulesets can absolutely reduce the social and competitive impact of XP boosts compared to old-school open-world EQ. But saying "there is no competition at all" isn't really true either. Players still compare progression, gear, efficiency, completion, economic wealth/accumulation, raid capability, character strength, etc. MMOs are inherently progression-driven social environments even when they're "casual-friendly".

The "nitro on an empty racetrack" analogy also kind of falls apart because the racetrack isn't actually empty. Other players still exist. Shared economies still exist. Social hierarchies still exist. Progression curves still exist. The more accurate analogy would be: "Everyone gets their own lane on the racetrack, so using nitro doesn't force other cars off the road." Which is fair. That absolutely lowers the impact, but the nitro still exists.

And honestly, I think where the conversation lands for me is that server structure determines whether a monetization system is mildly annoying, largely irrelevant, or genuinely harmful. A solo-friendly instanced server with XP pots is probably closer to "mostly harmless convenience monetization" than some ultra-competitive uninstanced TLP sweatfest. But I still don't buy the argument that monetized progression acceleration somehow ceases to be P2W entirely just because the environment softens the consequences.
 
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moonarchia

moonarchia

The Scientific Shitlord
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Kirun said:
I get the argument, but I think this is where people get way too hung up on the literal word "winning" in P2W and end up talking themselves into weird semantic corners. MMORPGs generally do not have a traditional "you win" screen. By this logic, almost nothing in an MMO could ever be P2W unless the cash shop literally mailed you a credits roll and deleted your character afterward. "Winning" in MMO terminology has always referred to gaining gameplay advantages, progression advantages, efficiency advantages, or competitive advantages through spending money.

Now, I do agree that server design massively changes how impactful those advantages are. Rulesets can absolutely reduce the social and competitive impact of XP boosts compared to old-school open-world EQ. But saying "there is no competition at all" isn't really true either. Players still compare progression, gear, efficiency, completion, economic wealth/accumulation, raid capability, character strength, etc. MMOs are inherently progression-driven social environments even when they're "casual-friendly".

The "nitro on an empty racetrack" analogy also kind of falls apart because the racetrack isn't actually empty. Other players still exist. Shared economies still exist. Social hierarchies still exist. Progression curves still exist. The more accurate analogy would be: "Everyone gets their own lane on the racetrack, so using nitro doesn't force other cars off the road." Which is fair. That absolutely lowers the impact, but the nitro still exists.

And honestly, I think where the conversation lands for me is that server structure determines whether a monetization system is mildly annoying, largely irrelevant, or genuinely harmful. A solo-friendly instanced server with XP pots is probably closer to "mostly harmless convenience monetization" than some ultra-competitive uninstanced TLP sweatfest. But I still don't buy the argument that monetized progression acceleration somehow ceases to be P2W entirely just because the environment softens the consequences.
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We disagree on the impact. For a server like THJ the other players are 100% optional, so unless you choose to play with them what you or they do in terms of XP pots is utterly irrelevant. Same with the economy, social competitions, etc. You can do everything 100% solo, and in fact a lot of players enjoy to go 100% SSF instead of using baz for convenience.

Everyone gets their own racetrack, but they do share a snack shop.
 
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Mrniceguy

Mrniceguy

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moonarchia said:
We disagree on the impact. For a server like THJ the other players are 100% optional, so unless you choose to play with them what you or they do in terms of XP pots is utterly irrelevant. Same with the economy, social competitions, etc. You can do everything 100% solo, and in fact a lot of players enjoy to go 100% SSF instead of using baz for convenience.

Everyone gets their own racetrack, but they do share a snack shop.
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The racetrack is clearly being designed for the people using nitro, there is a shortcut jump that is only possible with the extra speed from Nitro.
 
Pharone

Pharone

Trakanon Raider
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xmod2 said:
You would have loved THJ. More the pity this temu version is the first exposure EQ fans are getting to the concept. With no alts and the need to do end game shit to unlock new classes, they've really limited the space of 'experimentation' people can do. You're locked into your first (and usually worst) decisions for a long time.

THJ had it where you had so many alts, they had to add 'grouping' options in the character select menu so you could categorize them. Another neat thing was an NPC that let you put your class selection up to fate and would server announce the three random classes you were assigned. Discord was always alive with people min maxing different builds and giving them names (mag/bst/nec pet cuck, etc) and discussing itemization and AA priorities. That spirit of experimentation feels lost with the seemingly arbitrary limitations being put in the game. Again, another reason THJ was so good was no daybreak meddling. No 'well we have to have long lockouts to increase player retention' horseshit. Just good game attracting good players.

God, I really hope this all bombs and DBG goes out of business and the IP is just abandoned so the community can pick up the slack.
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I'm not sure where people getting this idea of "classes locked behind endgame" from... When you create your character, you can choose any two classes you want. You don't have to unlock anything to choose what ever two classes you want. Why do people keep saying this is locked behind endgame content?

The only thing that locks is at level 11, your PRIMARY class is locked on your character. You can still choose any two other classes to go along with your primary class, and you can change those two extra classes at any time. It works exactly like the persona system in regular EQ. You go to a tab, choose to add a build, and then you choose your 2 extra classes to go along with your existing primary class. You can have any number of builds which means you can have any number of combinations that you can switch between at anytime when you are back in town (just like how personas wont let you change unless you are in a safe zone).

It's the same concept as personas with the exception that you get 3 classes at a time instead of 1.

The ONLY thing you are unlocking later on is the ability to have a different PRIMARY class in your builds.

And, you can change your primary class at anytime before you reach level 11.

Here's the thing... don't choose a stupid class to be your primary class.

Then when you get to level 50, unlock additional primary classes by playing the damn game. You know, the thing you already fucking do.

Why the fuck is that so controversial to anyone?

Here's the cliff notes version:
  1. Don't choose a stupid class to be your primary class.. seriously.. don't be a fucking idiot and this is a no brainer
  2. You can change your primary class at any time before you hit level 11. Again, no fucking brainer. Play it for 10 levels and see if you like pairing that class with other classes. It's not fucking rocket science
  3. At level 10 and beyond, you can swap between any classes as your TWO secondary classes to go along with your primary class AT ANY TIME. You literally just create different builds and swap between them when in town
  4. At max level, go farm level 50 raid content (THAT YOU CAN LITERALLY SOLO) to complete quests in order to open ADDITIONAL primary class slots in order to have builds you can swap to that have a DIFFERENT primary class
Seriously. You people make such a fucking issue out of the stupidest shit.

You complain about the game being made too easy for you and then you turn around and complain that you have to do some quests (that you can fucking SOLO) at end game in order to have additional classes to use as your primary class.

Stop being fucking retarded.
 
Mrniceguy

Mrniceguy

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Pharone said:
I'm not sure where people getting this idea of "classes locked behind endgame" from... When you create your character, you can choose any two classes you want. You don't have to unlock anything to choose what ever two classes you want. Why do people keep saying this is locked behind endgame content?
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Because this is how you change your primary class

Class.jpg


It's a mechanic that's blatantly designed to get you to buy a token if you wanna change your primary class. With 7 day unlocks it will be borderline impossible to do for the first 3 months. There is zero reason for this mechanic to exist. It exist solely to scam people out of money.
 
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M

murawung

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Mrniceguy said:
Because this is how you change your primary class

View attachment 628359

It's a mechanic that's blatantly designed to get you to buy a token if you wanna change your primary class. With 7 day unlocks it will be borderline impossible to do for the first 3 months. There is zero reason for this mechanic to exist. It exist solely to scam people out of money.
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Don't forget about no alts.


I get what you're saying Pharone, but if I want to change my mind because my level 35 primary warrior / monk / bard doesn't feel fun and I want to try shadowknight / rogue / mage I'm just fucked into deleting or buying a primary swap token. That is not a good system. That is a system designed around MTX and shitty game design.
 
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hory

hory

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Sounds like a perfect fucking system if you want people to keep paying a monthly sub and buy useless pixels.

Rogan and Secrets financial freedom is being gate kept only by their ability to extract money out of 75 IQ eq addicted people.
If they can do it they will crowd fund themselves to onlyfan like levels.
 
Arbitrary

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
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Kithani said:
What is the rationale they have claimed behind not allowing any alts?
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It allows them to sell similar but not quite the same feature to you for additional revenue. Maybe you buy another copy and make an alt that way. That also works.
 
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