Coka
Golden Squire
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Haven't you got to move? In like a month?
How can you find the time to post so much on a thread you don't care about in response to a server you barely play on.
You really are a next level sperg. You sad fuck.
Everquest TLP - Aradune and Rizlona Servers (Now with real customer service)
- Thread starter Zaide
- Start date
How can you find the time to post so much on a thread you don't care about in response to a server you barely play on.
You really are a next level sperg. You sad fuck.
Current expansion servers also have tons more ways to spend money. EQ2, despite having a fraction of EQ1's MAU count, has a decent stream of revenue per user.
I'd argue TLP players are only even to live because of Krono, XP Pot, cosmetic pet w/ buff, and other nonsensical item sales.
Other servers on live have far more selection than TLP in terms of dumb garbage to spend your money on. Overseer, Hero's Forge, stat mounts, crates, list goes on really.
EQ2 has always offered a more predatory monetization model than EQ1. Their TLP servers let you buy power in the form of spells, gambled mounts, tradeskill potions of progress (they instantly complete combines), and those little transactions eat away at DBC which cannot be obtained through Krono, thus increasing their overall revenue when players are pidgeonholed into them to compete. That's not even counting EQ2's live servers, which have extra tiers of monetized spell research, they also have infusers (items that increase the base stats of items you obtain), familiars (think EQ1's stat mounts, but for cosmetic pets) mount barding (equipment for your pet), mercenary gear (equipment for your mercenary), rare mercenaries through gacha crates that have higher base stats.
It's no wonder live keeps up. I'm just glad they haven't gone the Facebook game route like EQ2 has.
yerm
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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I actively enjoyed throwing some cash at overseer. I enjoyed it, I had really good dialogue with the gms working out issues at release, it wasn't perfect by any means of course but it was a good thing that I liked and was happy to pay a bit into. It didn't feel like a facebook game the way wow's versions did. I was a huge fan of lon and sad as hell they scrapped it.
Classic-pop for whatever reason doesn't have a lot of "stuff" like this AND the community that cycles these I am not sure would go for it. I remember rtugok talking about how they had internal discussions over the lack of sales and that's why they ended up going with stuff like bags - doesn't "break" the game enough to scare people away, and even though it's more of a one off purchase that's fine if people buy them every couple years.
Classic-pop for whatever reason doesn't have a lot of "stuff" like this AND the community that cycles these I am not sure would go for it. I remember rtugok talking about how they had internal discussions over the lack of sales and that's why they ended up going with stuff like bags - doesn't "break" the game enough to scare people away, and even though it's more of a one off purchase that's fine if people buy them every couple years.
I didn't enjoy throwing cash at overseer in either EQ1/EQ2. Both have the system, and it felt bolted onto the game and forced down the devs' throats by upper management due to declining sales. The same goes for WoW's system, though at least there was no p2w in that one, just horribly designed time gating.
It feels like those features EQ/EQ2/WoW would put in the expansion feature notes on trying to sell the game, which sound cool, but end up missing the mark.
For those 3 games, they had a ton of systems made over the years that they kept for maybe one level cap and discarded. Or kept the change/addition and had sunk cost fallacy on the development time despite the change/addition being wildly unpopular. Or they bolted onto an existing system.
In EQ2, i'd consider those bloats to be:
Reforging, Tradeskill Apprentices, Dungeon Maker, SOEMote, Deities, Guild Halls, Dynamic Combat Music, Prestige Tradeskills, Organic Adornments, Prestige Classes, Grandmaster Spells, Item Infusion, Ascension Classes, Mercenary Gear, Mount Gear, Mount Levels, Mercenary Levels, and the Overseer system.
In EQ1 I'm gonna need a fucking cup of coffee to list them all, but let's start with Dragon's Hoard, the 3 bolted-on Bazaar systems that 'get introduced' with RoF2, Spirit Shrouds, Heroic Adventures, Monster Missions... there's a ton more I just don't feel like remembering, so I'd have to google for them.
It's actually kinda crazy how both EQ and EQ2 revamped freeport into a horribly designed mess.
Oh, and fuck new Tox, new Misty, new Ro, new OOT, the two other versions of Nektulos they made for some reason and fuck the new Lavastorm. Fuck those zones in particular.
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Vindicator
Bronze Squire
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I enjoyed the actual game of LoN, plus the chase of trying to complete all of the different objectives to wrack up as many ingame prizes (from potions to ornaments) as I could.
Sieger
Trakanon Raider
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The only revamp zone that slightly bothers me at all is Freeport, and that's just because it made the city too big and tedious to move around in. I frankly don't see any real issue with any of the other revamp zones. I have zero real emotional attachment to those mostly empty and boring old EQ zones, nor do I have a particular affinity for the updated versions. Most classic zones are boring and empty, with a few standouts that kind of make classic special, but the vast majority of content shipped with original EQ was trash, looked bad (even by 1999 standards), played bad (even by 1999 standards) etc.
I've never had any issue with game monetization but I'm not an actual communist. To me if a business proposes a transaction, you have the freedom as a customer to decide if you would like to enter that transaction. That is basically the foundation of our society, if gamers don't want to do micro transactions--don't do them. The fact that they, as free-thinking individuals, choose to do them suggests there is demand for them. Basic economic theory suggests that the fact these transactions do occur, is evidence both sides are happy with the outcomes.
The early eras of EQ are special for nostalgia reasons, but unlike a lot of people I don't think there's any "there there" for building on to it. Stuff like emus are a good place to explore stuff like that, but I think there is little real market for it outside of the already extant TLP player market. Live EQ is kind of in a similar niche, it has the player base that it has, and it's unlikely to increase over time, but given the relatively slow rate of death (in real life) of its players, it likely will happily trundle on for another 10+ years or so.
Going back 7 years ago I considered myself at that time a pretty enthusiastic advocate of early EQ and excited TLPer, 7 TLP release cycles later and frankly I despise most of the early content and many of the people who cycle through it (many of whom are friends of mine.) I still find justifications to play it on some level, but it's continually adjusted away from traditional paradigms and into more degenerate forms of game play (with Mischief being kind of the peak, where I'm doing little guild activities but lots of autistic stuff in a small man crew.) Maybe no one else has reached this point, but I'm a little skeptical that I'm the only TLPer who has kinda grown tired of the same old shit over and over, which is why I've always been skeptical that early EQ was some sort of Holy Grail that should inform future game design. That isn't me really shitting on early era so much as it's me saying it's dated gameplay and concepts that after redoing too many fucking times, just isn't that special anymore. I loved Civ2 when it was the newest Civ game, but I have zero desire to go replay it, they've made much better Civ games since. Not everything needs infinitely revisited.
Maybe the one salient thing I've learned from doing all of the expansions, is I think they had a good crew of devs involved in EQ from about TSS thru RoF, there were a couple hiccups there (more understandable when you factor in many expansions were released 2x yearly), but most of that content is actually quite good. I think if they had gone straight from PoP into TSS quality content, the game would not have fallen off quite as hard as it actually did. Would it have been a WoW killer? Of course not, I just think their business would have held up better. Now, if they had actually delivered on the current fully finished GoD back when GoD launched for real, I think it would've been a worthy next step, and then after that just skip like the bad decisions they made for about 3.5 years after GoD and you get into some better content. The big issue after RoF is the clear evidence money was pulled from the game's development budget, less content, heavier reuse of assets and a virtual cessation of new AA and spell design became the norm for the next 7 expansions, and maybe the only thing they've truly improved in that stretch has just been some creative raid encounter design.
I've never had any issue with game monetization but I'm not an actual communist. To me if a business proposes a transaction, you have the freedom as a customer to decide if you would like to enter that transaction. That is basically the foundation of our society, if gamers don't want to do micro transactions--don't do them. The fact that they, as free-thinking individuals, choose to do them suggests there is demand for them. Basic economic theory suggests that the fact these transactions do occur, is evidence both sides are happy with the outcomes.
The early eras of EQ are special for nostalgia reasons, but unlike a lot of people I don't think there's any "there there" for building on to it. Stuff like emus are a good place to explore stuff like that, but I think there is little real market for it outside of the already extant TLP player market. Live EQ is kind of in a similar niche, it has the player base that it has, and it's unlikely to increase over time, but given the relatively slow rate of death (in real life) of its players, it likely will happily trundle on for another 10+ years or so.
Going back 7 years ago I considered myself at that time a pretty enthusiastic advocate of early EQ and excited TLPer, 7 TLP release cycles later and frankly I despise most of the early content and many of the people who cycle through it (many of whom are friends of mine.) I still find justifications to play it on some level, but it's continually adjusted away from traditional paradigms and into more degenerate forms of game play (with Mischief being kind of the peak, where I'm doing little guild activities but lots of autistic stuff in a small man crew.) Maybe no one else has reached this point, but I'm a little skeptical that I'm the only TLPer who has kinda grown tired of the same old shit over and over, which is why I've always been skeptical that early EQ was some sort of Holy Grail that should inform future game design. That isn't me really shitting on early era so much as it's me saying it's dated gameplay and concepts that after redoing too many fucking times, just isn't that special anymore. I loved Civ2 when it was the newest Civ game, but I have zero desire to go replay it, they've made much better Civ games since. Not everything needs infinitely revisited.
Maybe the one salient thing I've learned from doing all of the expansions, is I think they had a good crew of devs involved in EQ from about TSS thru RoF, there were a couple hiccups there (more understandable when you factor in many expansions were released 2x yearly), but most of that content is actually quite good. I think if they had gone straight from PoP into TSS quality content, the game would not have fallen off quite as hard as it actually did. Would it have been a WoW killer? Of course not, I just think their business would have held up better. Now, if they had actually delivered on the current fully finished GoD back when GoD launched for real, I think it would've been a worthy next step, and then after that just skip like the bad decisions they made for about 3.5 years after GoD and you get into some better content. The big issue after RoF is the clear evidence money was pulled from the game's development budget, less content, heavier reuse of assets and a virtual cessation of new AA and spell design became the norm for the next 7 expansions, and maybe the only thing they've truly improved in that stretch has just been some creative raid encounter design.
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DickTrickle
Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
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No one should ever think doing the same thing seven times (which actually involves months and months of investment) will yield continuing satisfaction. That's pretty rare.
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Sieger
Trakanon Raider
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yerm
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Uh sir I think you're in the wrong place with that question.
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Would agree about TSS. If they kept the game updated with new races & lowbie/mid tier content in a similar quality to TSS, I think it'd keep up.
The only content from 1-35 prior to TSS was LDON, and that was all instanced content.
The other issue I have with later EQ is the aesthetic of the game does not match the older parts of the game. The blocky art, to the high-ish quality textured, smooth terrain.
You're going from Brad McQuaid's ToonTown, to 'artist hired to make art with no guidelines on art style' from one zone to another.
Sieger
Trakanon Raider
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Right, I mostly am not a huge fan of the art style of later EQ, but there are a few exceptions that I think are good. I think they actually did really good with the zone revamps in EoK and RoS, and I think the RoF and Underfoot zones are all really well done. But I also really dislike when old EQ and new EQ clash. This is something I get a lot of grief for but historically I've switched to new models on Luclin and beyond on TLPs. I have more of an emotional affinity for the old models, and think the new models look bad in many ways, but to me it's more visually jarring to be running around as a 1999 Dark Elf in a Guild Hall on Live filled with various housing items + mercenaries that are all new models + weapons that are much higher texture than old models + mobs that are all mostly imported from EQ2 now etc. It's kind of like if you were running around as a Mario 1 sprite version of Mario in Mario 64, it's just too jarring.
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Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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I agree with pretty much all of this heavily, except for the experiences after PoP (I haven't played past LDoN, so I can't agree to things I've yet to play). This is now my 3rd TLP (did Ragefire/LJ, then Selo's, and now Mischief) and I couldn't agree more about the design/QOL decisions of the "early" era(s)of EQ. Sure, the nostalgia is great sometimes, but after a few hours of it, I'm usually left feeling pissed off that they're still clinging to "the way it was" on these TLPs, rather than just fucking adding the massive improvements in QOL they've added since.
Half the reason Kronolords are even a thing and allowed to fester on TLPs is precisely because they keep a ton of things "the way they were". To the point where they've even nerfed/removed shit that Karen the Casual complains about (not realizing their bitching is actually just making the problem worse for themselves). There is just soooo much about early EQ's design that is dated and wasn't ever "good" design in the first fucking place. It's quite literally tedium for tedium's sake, most of which was added simply as an artificial gate/limiter to completing content.
Like you said, it was fine when EQ was the only kid on the block to play with, but now that we have access to the whole neighborhood, Timmy's house is pretty fucking stupid in a lot of ways. I've made it a point that I'm going to stick out this TLP until at LEAST RoF (a lot of which has to do with how much I'm enjoying random loot, despite thinking I'd fucking hate it) and I'm excited to get to the TSS era. Which I've heard was a real "renaissance" for EQ, despite not many people still being around to experience it. It was their first and last "self-contained" expansion since Kunark, right?
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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So much this. I do the same around the Luclin or PoP era. It's just waaaay too fucking jarring running around on those older models/textures when everything else looks so vastly different.
I actually like what they did for the "monster" races in EQ (Iksar especially - that model is straight up 100% better than the old shit, but even Ogre, Troll, etc. are pretty solid). The only models they really fucked up IMO were Human and Dwarf. Plus, they somehow found a way to make the elvish races even gayer (high-elf, wood-elf, half-elf, dark-elf), but who the fuck plays those fags anyways.
EDIT: Derp, I completely forgot that Luclin was self-contained as well, good point.
Regime
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
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Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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My enchanter is Peek(he's 60 as of yesterday) and my mage is Lilpump(56), but I've been leveling up my Ogre squad of Bigdabb and Yungswurv. I'll add Danktrain to the mix, but I'm waiting on my 2nd laptop to get here.
Pharone
Trakanon Raider
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I have suggested many, many times that they should create TLP-specific expansions that pick up directly after Planes of Power and continue the story in a new direction. People are like "that would be awesome" and the threads go on and on, and in the end, nothing happens. Why? Because the people in charge over there are more than happy to keep putting out TLP after TLP that makes them a ton of money with out doing a damn thing to change it.
Plausible Lore to support a timeline branch after Planes of Power expansion:
- The Gods decide that having mortals in their planar homes is a really bad idea
- They work together to cause a catastrophic event that sends destroys the current timeline and sends them back in time to just before the end of Shadows of Luclin
- They prevent the discovery of travel to the Plane of Knowledge
- Some of the Gods try to use the opportunity to take control for themselves which insights a major battle between the Gods
- The Plane of Knowledge ends up getting blown to oblivion with one of the good God's paying the ultimate price in an attempt to save everyone currently in the Plane of Knowledge which results in that God being erased from existence (as far as we know), with the PoK Library being relocated in Erudin (replaces the old Erudin library), the housing district being teleported to just off of the Qeynos Hills, and the Guild Halls being located in the Freeport Harbor
- The fighting between the Gods creates a situation where mortals can still access the planes (PoP raid zones.. no PoK, no PoTranquility) via the wizard portals and druid rings
- All expansions after Planes of Power would be null and void for the timeline because history has been changed right after the events listed above that took place after Quarm was killed.
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Rajaah
Honorable Member
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Kunark, Luclin, and TSS are all self-contained, as in you can start from level 1. They also all contain a new race. They just don't make all-encompassing expacs like that anymore. I like how the TSS zones are tiered so everyone's kind of moving up together. You've got Crescent Reach for 1-10, Blightfire Moors for like, 10-30, Goru'Kar Mesa for 30-50, Steppes and Sunderock for 50-65, Icefall and Direwind for 65-75, with Frostcrypt and Ashengate as the raid/loot zones. There are also a couple of side-dungeons like Blackfeather Roost and Vergalid Mines that add a side of dungeon-crawling to get away from the mostly-outdoor zones. I love Sunderock Springs in particular, great zone with great music and there's nothing else quite like it in EQ. The only issue I have with TSS is that Goru'Kar Mesa is pretty damn boring, especially for a zone that goes from like 30 to 50. That's a long time to be in a zone that bland. However, in a way, it's no worse than the Barrens in WoW and people spend a ton of levels there.
RoF is the last great expansion IMO, and it's level 100, so it's a good end-point. Though a lot of people liked the EOK/ROS/TBL trio later on.
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I can barely get through classic on a new TLP. Doing the grind on Agnarr was enough for me. Classic is just so incredibly boring and unfun to me. imo pop is very ideal in terms of player power and what you can do.