Thanks all for the great dialogue. I wrote some thoughts and discourse here. In general what I have found is lack of raid selection efficiency and a "clear all at all tims approach" leads to a lot of useless raiding, dkp inflation, etc. I want to make your DKP count with a "No Filler Content" Targeted Progression Guild.
So you wouldn't raid the planes in classic? I think in kunark we were at 2 2 hour raids per week. Velious is boss heavy, we're doing alot.
I am proposing a unique casual veteran guild that is a "No Filler Content" Targeted Progression Guild -- One raid night per week -- but that raid night is probably closer to 3 hours (4 if / as needed) in length. We would target to progress to the top end bosses as quickly and efficiently as possible. I like to think of it as a hard mode. The answer to your question is "it depends" based on the progression point we are at through classic and if it makes sense.
I would have to think through classic more but the planes could be a great off-night target because mostly I would expect vets to gear themselves in that type of planar armor. It might be involved in early progression though. Mini's can go eff themselves though for example. Im not going to have a whole raid sit there for hours on something you can 1 group in kunark for someone that may need an item then. I think the entire strategy would get mapped out in detail before each expac launch and allow members to comment in case we miss something. For those that "have to have' a certain item -- you just go and hit that on the GDKP night.
So for Velious NTOV + Kael thats all we would do for official raids. Once Kael isn't super juicy anymore we would work in something else. We all know the feeling of pointless AOW cycles. Off-night stuff would be the rest and be voluntary GDKP.
I've been in well run casual guilds that never batphoned, with DZs you can still clear everything. Obviously you will not get as much loot as you do batphoning but it also shields you from the least fun aspects of gaming (rushing to compete with other guilds, having to drop your well running xp group, expectation to attend interfering with RL etc).
It helps to have a raid leader willing to get on with things. We always used an on time check for DKP (not in zone at the start time = miss out on substantial DKP). Also, don't wait until everyone is there and buffed to start pulling shit, especially before MGB comes around you can easily end up wasting 20+ minutes casting buffs that you really don't need to succeed. Timmy the Ranger doesn't need to have every single shaman buff. Buff a tank, have some form of mana regen on healers and you are ready to start pulling.
So I would think to run the thing like an AOS type guild from a standards/raid enforcement type deal on mobilization and class performance. You would only be raiding top end content once a week on a no filler content guild so you are expected to bring your A game. If you have ever heard Grizvok yelling at people you will know what I am talking about. I can guaruntee you we arent delaying the raid to go rez someone in sirens grotto. Lets put it that way
We would intentionally not be clearing everything on official raid night ( one per week ) -- offnight could be some other stuff in a GDKP format. Forcing yourself to pick what to clear and be serious about being respectful of your members time I think is something stellar. I think offering the regular offnight GDKP thing allows whoever wants to do something to go and get all they can eat.
On-time DKP ticks are paramount for getting people on and ready at start time. Can even have them only go to people in-zone to really speed things up, though that runs the risk of leaving out slow zoners so I don't know. Like in OGC the tick happens at 7:00, buffs start going out, buffs are done by like 7:08 and we're starting an event. I've been in other guilds that'd wait until everyone got there to start buffing, then would have a big med break after the buffs were done, then would start pulling at like 7:25. And guilds like that, between fights, the same thing happens. You end up tuning out pretty hard when after every event you're all just sitting there waiting for another 20-30 minute rez/buff/med session to go by.
It makes a world of difference. I'm waaaay less likely to quit the game in exhaustion if raid guilds are respecting people's time (which goes for the participants respecting each other's time as well).
So I find a no filler content targeted progression guild to target doing just that: Really respecting your time. You are 100% correct about the hidden costs associated with raiding and mobilization. Add 45 minutes of "filler time" to each raid between getting there, blah blah blah -- so thats 2.25 hours per week. One fucking time per week show the fuck up and go. Offnights could be more casual -- but are not mandatory. I love efficiency.
Have you actually tried any non batphone guilds?
On Mangler, for most of the expansions, there were like ten guilds clearing it within a week or twoof the first guild to clear it (slightly longer for something like VT with keying reqs) -- and that's largely because of sticking to scheduled times instead of pushing on launch. If they were all led by incompetent shitters with poorly executed raids, that wouldn't be happening, even with how easy EQ is. I don't see any of these guilds taking an hour to show up and get buffed before getting started. Mine certainly doesn't.
I do agree for most expansions, three days of raiding is excessive. Two is really all that's required. I don't think you're going to get to one in a number of expansions. Are you going to skip Ssra in Luclin or relegate it solely to offnight? Or skip LDON raids and keep doing time, or do LDON raids and skip Time? I'm assuming you don't want a four hour raid night. If you're not earning DKP, I think you'll find a lot of people aren't as interested or you get a lot of boxes and alts that doesn't make for a great experience either.
I think this idea works better with smaller raid forces, but then attrition becomes more serious. If you have a huge raid force and only one enforced raiding day, gearing new people may be problematic if people aren't earning DKP for off night.
I have tried several non batphone guilds. I also want to dial my language back and say that I don't mean to shit on "everyone". There are hardcore instance only guilds that probably run a tight ship -- but I have also found those guys try to deep split and run instances 3 nights per week with deep splits and its just not good for my life style right now.
There is a unique market opportunity for a veteran "dad guild" that isnt comprised of shitters -- highly targeted No Filler Content respect your time get shit done type of place that adds an extra level of spice and difficulty because we aren't mass farming garbage content hours on end. So the challenge cuts both ways -- extremely high standards, less raiding, high end targets / targeted progression only (if we cant kill something day 1 end game you would "progress towards that"). So to answer your question -- SSRA would obviously be a target pre-VT then afterwards probably go to off night so the nature of what you are raiding in prime time can shift over the course of the expac. I think there becomes a natural progression throughout the course of the expac rather than a static approach. I think thats the best approach because lets face it on the SSRA example -- 90% of the gear is useless pretty quickly outside of cursed and emp himself and even emp is pretty skippable. I would argue that cursed is probably the least skippable mob there.
Off-night raids can still happen outside of targeted content and those are run as GDKP -- so loot is still dropping and people can get gear. Also as a veteran guild we would have high standards and tell people to "git gud".
"No Filler Content" Targeted Progression Guild - I am not saying its a dominant strategy but I think its a great niche for washed up vets like me and adds some new spice -- because lets face it -- EQ is fucking easy and my definition of hard is not: Autistic deep splits and kiting aow for 2 hours, facerolling content with 200 people, etc.
My definition of hard with EQ is enjoying it and getting the entire experience without spending 3-4 days a week on it -- discretion because lets face it server firsts etc. after doing it 5+ times just arent all that unique anymore. I think it will grab vets, some kronolords (who are usually good players), people who are looking for something different, and others and make a nice little guild. I think forcing yourself to down-select and do it in one night and still achieve the top end stuff is an interesting and really unique challenge.
If people wanted to mob after official raids im not stopping them btw.
