Falling out of love with gaming

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
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Am I the only one who always had a selective "gaming-standards"??

Back when all my friends used to play Sonic, Mario, Zelda.. I used to play Eye of the Beholder, Ultima, Civilization, Monkey Island, Hero's Quest (Quest for Glory)...heh, basically good PC games. I think games with depth and games that are streamlined have always existed but back then the gaming industry wasn't a multi-billion-dollar market.


You can't expect me to play quest-fetch games when I could never have played such retarded game concept when I was 20 years younger. Give me something that stimulate my brain, involving, innovative and fun... and you'll find me having a good time. Why do I still enjoy tabletop game still? I've never complained about them, they've always been good. Never once I said "Oh boy board games are horrible now..." No, do you know why? Because tabletop gaming is not a multi-billion-dollar market which means idiots-in-suits didn't invade that genre yet.
Agree whole heatedly... It seems pretty clear who are the game designers these days... and they are the publishers not the game designers of old. If features are based on revenue dollars and as such, new things will not come.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Why do I still enjoy tabletop game still? I've never complained about them, they've always been good. Never once I said "Oh boy board games are horrible now..." No, do you know why? Because tabletop gaming is not a multi-billion-dollar market which means idiots-in-suits didn't invade that genre yet.
www.hasbro.comwould like to meet you.

Anyway there are many terrible and many more merely mediocre board and card games. By the natue of what it means to be "good" or "great" there can only ever be a limited number of things that are "good" and even less things that are "great" and for every good or great game there must be a large number of games that are terrible or mediocre. Reality grades on a curve.

With respect specifically to boardgames, the market is awash with Eurogames, not a single one of which that I've played (and I've played a lot of Eurogames) comes close to the depth or enjoyment of a game of 1856. So while I wouldn't say table-top gaming is horrible right now, I would say it's awash in mediocrity but then again that's status-quo.
 

Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
Am I the only one who always had a selective "gaming-standards"??

Back when all my friends used to play Sonic, Mario, Zelda...
I hated a HUGE amount of games and was picky as hell even as a teen. I think I realize why now though: The camera angles in a lot of early 3d games fucked with me for some reason, so a lot of stuff that people loved like Grand theft auto 3 and Ocarina of time, I hated. I'm pretty sure it's mainly a camera angle thing and I just didn't realize it at the time, because I found myself playing a lot of top-down or first person stuff. I was a real picky nerd though. These days, I find myself less picky and am a lot more willing to just play whatever to kill some time, but also a lot less likely to be at all interested at getting in depth into a game. Like someone else said, I really am only interested in the 9's and 10's. The mediocre average 7 and 8's commit the sin of being generic, boring, played out, and repetitive for me. I try and only play the exceptional and unique now.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
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www.hasbro.comwould like to meet you.

Anyway there are many terrible and many more merely mediocre board and card games. By the natue of what it means to be "good" or "great" there can only ever be a limited number of things that are "good" and even less things that are "great" and for every good or great game there must be a large number of games that are terrible or mediocre. Reality grades on a curve.

With respect specifically to boardgames, the market is awash with Eurogames, not a single one of which that I've played (and I've played a lot of Eurogames) comes close to the depth or enjoyment of a game of 1856. So while I wouldn't say table-top gaming is horrible right now, I would say it's awash in mediocrity but then again that's status-quo.
Many Board Gamers will not consider Hasbro when it comes to Board Gaming. You probably will never find Hasbro products in hobbystores. Hasbro target audience is not the tabletop people and most of their products are considered "toys" not games.

Board Gaming is doing great.
Check these publishers out...

Fantasy Flight Games, Asmodee, Plaid Hat Games, AEG, Z-Man... just to name a few
smile.png
 

Faddor_sl

shitlord
59
0
I find this argument completely false, and you to be an apologist for shitty, stagnant gaming. Rift was never better than WoW, and WoW never held a candle to EQ or especially UO. Almost 20 years and we can't get any real (non-instanced) player housing that matters, or a functional player based economy, or a meaningful world with PvP consequences.

Take your nostalgia argument and shelve it.

Objectively you are full of shit. They are absolutely better now. Rift is and always was 10times better then WoW was for years. You can make the arguement of wow being better then rift after 3(4?) expansions. but before that? hell no.
the state of the industry change is there are alternatives. you quit rift, and you have 20 other mmos you can try out. with a new one or two coming out every 3 months.

The problem is YOU as a gamer grew up. you dont play games in the same way anymore. As a mature gamer, you should be moving on to more robust games, tailored for your preferences. But for some reason, a great deal of people just seem to refuse to do that. they stick with mainstream only. and then wonder why mass market products don't cater to them.


It really is the "the world seemed better then. because you were twelve"

WoW, UO, EQ
you didn't know any better. The myriad of shitty design flaws, you put up with. you didnt know of better UI's yet. you didn't know about any number of the features any given game will have now.
Your friends were playing, and it was also their first mmo. This is the single biggest. Want to know why any given mmo fails to be WoW since wow? "you play what your friends play." But now you are older, they are older. Getting everyone together to play that new mmo just isn't going to happen anymore. between your personal lives.
But even new generation of gamers. Again, competition. with UO there was 1 other mmo, with EQ there was 3 other mmos. with Wow 6? today there are more like 40 mmos.
 

Erronius

Macho Ma'am
<Gold Donor>
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Check these publishers out...

Fantasy Flight Games, Asmodee, Plaid Hat Games, AEG, Z-Man... just to name a few
smile.png
Tad10 is a big fan of boardgames iirc, so I wouldn't be surprised if he already has.

WoW never held a candle to EQ or especially UO.
Actually it did, in quite a number of ways, but no one wants to admit it. That isn't to say that WOW didn't go too far in it's quest for accessibility (at least in my opinion) and turn into a parody of its original form, but that also doesn't mean that WOW was worse than EQ or UO. Take this link for example - you get the"You Have 14 Days"rant, in which it was pretty clear how unhappy people were with EQ1 at the time (I know it resonated with me and quite a few of the people I knew who played EQ1 back then), followed by Alex raving about WOW, and right after that a recruitment post because of raid balance.

http://www.fohguild.org/archive.php?page=45

WOW just made sacrifices to some aspects of design while focusing on others. It's demonstrably better than EQ1 in some ways and worse in others, which is why people eyeroll whenever anyone tries to play the"EQ1 was better"card at every opportunity. I mean, we all played EQ1, I miss some things about it myself but let's not act like EQ1 is the perfect MMO or that WOW brings nothing to the table.

Almost 20 years and we can't get any real (non-instanced) player housing that matters, or a functional player based economy, or a meaningful world with PvP consequences.
Of your three points here I'd have to say that non-instanced housing isn't a big deal (even if I would like it myself) and sounds more like someone struggling to find something to grouse about, EVE knocked your second point out of the park and the 3rd point is kinda give and take depending on personal gaming tastes. Some would say that EVE accomplished this to some degree, but other people would tend to disagree.

I've said this before but most of the problems that WOW has stems from their underlying MMO design, which is very similar to what EQ1 had. And EQ1 stole their design from elsewhere, so a lot of what we've seen since then is MMO after MMO trying to reprise the same tired systems over and over. WOW simply took the quality and polish to new levels, but inevitably even the most diehard grognards will probably have to admit that studios trying to make better games based on the same level/item/raid progression paradigm and throwing content in front of gamers nonstop isn't going to work anymore.

People can keep on arguing that game X is better or whatever the fuck, but that entirely ignores the underlying issues that keeps leading to MMO after MMO that doesn't excite but a handful of people.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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non-instanced housing has everything to do with the move to 3d gaming, and the overall higher population in mmos. This is not "derp" devs are lazy and stupid.

real estate in a game is very valuable. even more so in a 3d game. Just think about it a moment, a player keep in WoW would need to be about the size of that barracks in Elynn, or about the size of Goldshire itself. Exactly how many could WoW afford? where would they place open space to allow for building of those, without directly impacting content. This isn't 2004 with miles of wide open useless spaces in games. and does anyone really want to go back to that? miles and miles of boring trash mobs?

Higher game populations make it even more of a problem. Allowing for player housing in UO with its MAX 250k players is one thing. Allowing for player housing in modern mmo with 500-1m is something else entirely.

Unless something major changes, we won't really be seeing non-instanced player housing any time soon.

That SAID, minecrafts, and a number of indie games, might just be that major change. A shift from MAX graphics to gameplay, might allow the tech to shift to worlds that can support player housing. An indie mmo could very well be on the horizon that would support it.
 

Aaron

Goonsquad Officer
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I am not a fan of housing or guildhalls or such, as if you implement those things then people will tend to hang out inside those areas leaving the cities with few people in them. But if you are going to implement them then instancing is the way to go. Why? Think about these issues non-instanced hosing will face:

1. The big question is: How many people will buy a house? The more you want to have a house, the larger the area you need to devote to housing. Take a WoW server with maybe 5k users on it (prolly bellow average). Are you going to have one house per account? Or one per character? Lets say it costs a fortune to buy the land or whatever and you can only have one per account, so you only have maybe 500-1000 slots. That's only 10-20% so 80-90% are going to be whiny about not having it. But even so, and given distribution between the capital cities it's still around 100-200 per area, and so depending on how large the lots are that is a LOT of in game real estate going towards this.

2. Then, what happens when you quit? Do you keep your house or do you lose it? If you keep it indefinitely then you're going to see a huge number of "empty" homes. If you keep, how long? a day? month? year? What happens to your stuff that I assume you would put in it once you lose it?

Think about it, why is SW and Ogrimarr so popular in WoW? The reason *I* use them is because all services are so close. The bank, AH and a repair vendor are all withing a few seconds run. People generally don't want to have to spend a lot of time "traveling" in MMOs. So if you have huge areas open for housing then you'll be talking about spending a long time travelling between your home and wherever else you want to go. Sure, you could implement instant travel and such between them, but if you do that, then what's wrong with having the homes instanced then?

I think those who would probably most like housing and such in MMOs are the die hard RP fans. The common gamer will probably not care too much about them. But I could be wrong.

Anyone know how popular player housing is/was in EQ2 and LotRO (the only games I know that have it)?
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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you make a great point about gating to houses in UO. how is that really all that different from an instance?

Wakfu does it well.

playershops/houses in one. you can at any place in the world, drop your bag on the ground. bags are basically bags of holding in it. inside the bag, you can make your house and set up a player shop. Other players can see and enter your bag to buy/sell, in the stall you set up to buy/sell things.

So the world isn't cluttered with houses everywhere. just bags that serve as gateways. and also allow player marketplaces to be set up.
 

muiy

Molten Core Raider
32
16
I think those who would probably most like housing and such in MMOs are the die hard RP fans. The common gamer will probably not care too much about them. But I could be wrong.
If you PvP'ed in UO you needed a house to store all your gear. Reagents. Backup sets of armor. Runes. Organized so that if you died you could re-gear quickly. And if you were successful at PvP you needed the storage space for all your loot. If you crafted then you probably needed the extra storage space for supplies and/or the equipment in houses like an anvil (I forget if other crafting required a house; I do remember learning Alchemy and having a small potion business purely out of my bank box).

You also needed a house to macro, and unless you were multi-boxing, you often needed a friend to macro with you. So houses therefore became gathering points for guilds. Impromptu hangouts and neighborhoods developed. Foot traffic increased. Vendors were set up. Violence happened.

If you're thinking within an EQ/WoW paradigm then yeah, housing is not needed. But in a player-run economy game like Haven & Hearth for example, all of the infrastructure needed to create anything is based off having your own plot of land and building it up. Local communities are created. Your experience in the game is different based on where you live.

And of course, whether it's UO or Haven, if you don't have houses to hide in, then you don't have criminals.

Caliane_sl said:
you make a great point about gating to houses in UO. how is that really all that different from an instance?
What is this I don't even
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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Gamesarestructured, by definition. The word you wanted was toy.
Everything has structure. Even LEGO, who is a toy, not a game (the difference between a game and a toy is that a game has an objective, a toy doesn't), is structured. It's impossible to plug pieces the wrong way or anything. You can't interconnect your railways except using the appropriate piece.

Played wargames? Wargames are highly structured. Notably "accurate" wargames where each unit is exactly (within the game model) what it was, and enter play at the exact time it did during the original events. But in a wargame, it's all about breaking the original narrative, figuring out how to go out of the narrative box of the battle, and reversing the course of history. If you do that, you win. In WoW, if you attempt that, the devs remove your pieces, "fix" them, and put them back in the proper order. You're playing a movie (quest), with a correct tempo (rotation). Anytime you go outside the script, either the designers fix it and you're put back into the story, or you get into meaningless boredom.
 

Faddor_sl

shitlord
59
0
Actually it did, in quite a number of ways, but no one wants to admit it. That isn't to say that WOW didn't go too far in it's quest for accessibility (at least in my opinion) and turn into a parody of its original form, but that also doesn't mean that WOW was worse than EQ or UO. Take this link for example - you get the"You Have 14 Days"rant, in which it was pretty clear how unhappy people were with EQ1 at the time (I know it resonated with me and quite a few of the people I knew who played EQ1 back then), followed by Alex raving about WOW, and right after that a recruitment post because of raid balance.
WOW just made sacrifices to some aspects of design while focusing on others. It's demonstrably better than EQ1 in some ways and worse in others, which is why people eyeroll whenever anyone tries to play the"EQ1 was better"card at every opportunity. I mean, we all played EQ1, I miss some things about it myself but let's not act like EQ1 is the perfect MMO or that WOW brings nothing to the table.

Of your three points here I'd have to say that non-instanced housing isn't a big deal (even if I would like it myself) and sounds more like someone struggling to find something to grouse about, EVE knocked your second point out of the park and the 3rd point is kinda give and take depending on personal gaming tastes. Some would say that EVE accomplished this to some degree, but other people would tend to disagree.

I've said this before but most of the problems that WOW has stems from their underlying MMO design, which is very similar to what EQ1 had. And EQ1 stole their design from elsewhere, so a lot of what we've seen since then is MMO after MMO trying to reprise the same tired systems over and over. WOW simply took the quality and polish to new levels, but inevitably even the most diehard grognards will probably have to admit that studios trying to make better games based on the same level/item/raid progression paradigm and throwing content in front of gamers nonstop isn't going to work anymore.

People can keep on arguing that game X is better or whatever the fuck, but that entirely ignores the underlying issues that keeps leading to MMO after MMO that doesn't excite but a handful of people.
I'd have to disagree with most of your specific points, but we don't disagree overall. Wow just copied EQ, it really brought almost nothing to the table other than accessibility, graphics, and a twitchier/better combat engine. Grind to max level (with much less character advancement, no AA, no epics) and play whack a mole with 39 other retards and hope nobody has to look away for 30 seconds. EQ may have copied some obscure shit, and we can argue about Runescape or The Realm or whatever the fuck, but it fundamentally had almost everything going on that WoW did, and most of what it didn't have, I don't want, like every item being soulbound completely fucking the economy. Find a purple? Well, fuck you, better sell it, because equipping it for two days was a fucking waste. You could play and enjoy EQ for months, even years, and never have to whack-a-mole raid the same shit every week on a boring and exact timer like WoW. Most of us didn't need or want to raid the bleeding edge in EQ to enjoy it, so "14 days" posts didn't really matter to everyone.

Wanting non-instanced housing is not just struggling to complain. The genre has turned into complete shit, there are more than enough legitimate things to complain about. You must not have played much UO to think non-instanced housing is some minor BS feature. Real estate had serious value, EMPTY real estate. Placing houses was difficult and proximity to points of interest magnified their value many times over. Having an excellent vendor house at a moongate or just outside the city limits was huge and could make the entire game for you if you were a crafter and economic type. Some of the most interesting times I had in UO was either attempting to loot someone else's house, or having my own looted. Hell, I remember literally defending a house once firing arrows and spells over locked-down entrance tables, not to mention the limited bank. Houses weren't just fluff, they were integral to gameplay.

I don't care enough to defend anymore specific points in this thread, and it's not necessary. The overwhelming tone of the thread is 100% spot on when it uses examples like Diablo 3 and Sim City. Corporate has bought up and whored out anything good in gaming to attract the CoD/Halo/Madden idiot crowd, and most of what is released now is mediocre at best. Players are littered all over this board who are willing to buy this shit at box price because "$50 isn't much money" and "I get my money worth after 2 months." They keep making sure these shitpiles continue to recoup their dev costs, and at least turn a small profit, so we keep getting them. It's almost hard to even blame them, since these shitty "MMOs" are setup to have all of their content consumed in 1-3 months and then they just end, aside from repeating the same pointless raid at the end. They've managed to turn persistent online worlds into shitty single player RPGs that charge you monthly to retain access.

The only area in gaming right now with anything approacing an acceptable price:quality ratio is (mostly PC) indie gaming. If you've bought any console since the Wii, you are pretty much a fucking idiot, because 99% of what is worthwhile can be gotten on PC, with no console cost, at vastly reduced prices with generally improved graphics and controls. Fuck, I can emulate any Wii game at 1080p via my computer, including use of the Wiimote, and it will look and run vastly better than it ever did on the original hardware. Consoles are basically dead (this coming generation may be the nail in the coffin) and AAA PC gaming, along with MMOs, is lucky to release 1-5 decent games a year.

AAA, even at 5-10x the price, doesn't have shit on FTL, Minecraft, Terraria, Killing Floor, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Amnesia, Legend of Grimrock, Binding of Isaac, Super Meat Boy, Orcs Must Die, or the other 100 games I've gotten under $5 each on Steam I haven't even touched.
 

Kreugen

Vyemm Raider
6,599
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I just.. no.

rrr_img_31016.jpg


You could play and enjoy EQ for months, even years, and never have to whack-a-mole raid the same shit every week on a boring and exact timer like WoW. Most of us didn't need or want to raid the bleeding edge in EQ to enjoy it, so "14 days" posts didn't really matter to everyone.
Buying expansions full of shiny new zones that you couldn't even access must have been a fun time.

Yeah, we all hated that WoW got rid of things like spending an hour recovering from a wipe to rebuff and med back up again. And classes had cool abilities to use more than once every 15 minutes (granted, that system goat bloated and went to shit by Cataclysm) And the switch to "every class is useful in all aspects of the game" from EQ's "classes are how they are and if they are useless then FUCK YOU" Oh, and not lying about what zones are available when the game launches, that was just awful as well. And remember those raids that weren't broken for three months without so much as a word from the devs? Those really made us miss EQ.

What WOW didn't copy from EQ was the mentality of "because FUCK YOU" that was the core of everything Everquest.

People who never got over EQ are the battered wives of the gaming world. Sure, I play on progression - but sure as hell not for nostalgia. I just find I like my MMO slow paced and dull these days.