Fires of Heaven and our continued disappointment
- Thread starter Jasker
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Daidraco
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Those vaporware games believed in values that as much as people "say" they want - in reality, their 'member berries are just all fucked up. Barely anyone seems to remember that when we were all playing EverQuest - we all called Classic WoW casual care bear shit. Now go back to when classic was first released, something stupid low like 2 in 5 people made it to max level. Point is - MMORPG's need a fuck ton of money and the ideas that originated out of the early days of EQ, UO, The Realm, DAoC etc. - they just dont pull in the masses.
New World has been the closest thing that audience has had and we'll never know if it could have stood on its own two legs with that original design or not because the game was so fucking buggy and hacking being so prevalent.
New World has been the closest thing that audience has had and we'll never know if it could have stood on its own two legs with that original design or not because the game was so fucking buggy and hacking being so prevalent.
Pharone
Trakanon Raider
- 1,138
- 1,007
I think the issue with the MMO industry is that they're trying to make games that last a life time ... because that's what we want, but reality is that we shouldn't expect a game to last 25+ years. No game can be designed with a multi-decade life span baked in with out certain parts of that life span sucking major ass.
I mean think about it... If they design a MMORPG from the get go to last 30 years, that means they are going to have to make the first x number of years be super dull and slow in advancement. If they don't do that, then you end up with the same failed situation we have today all over the industry where the best part of the game is the initial leveling up experience. After that, you are left with minor upgrades and insignificant character advancement.
For instance, early on in EQ, fear was an annoying thing that could happen to your character that added flavor to the game. After you get enough AAs to make fear no longer an issue at all (100% fear avoidance basically), where can you go with that system at that point. You have basically removed a game mechanic from the game. This is the kind of game evolution that is in all MMORPGs to date and leads to the games becoming a hollow shell of themselves after a number of expansions are released. And, lets nor forget how something so simple as getting a piece of gear early on that gave you +5 to some stat was exciting and made a noticeable difference in your character ends up being +1231241414541 to all stats a dozen expansions down the line and you see no noticeable difference at all.
To the industry to advance, they're going to have to eliminate the idea of an ever-expanding game. Instead, they should focus on an ever-evolving game IP. Gamers should go in to buying a new MMORPG with the expectation that the game they are buying is a one off game that is part of an IP they enjoy. The next expansion is actually a new game that follows the same IP, but is slightly different and/or evolved in some way. Your character can continue on from the last game, but it is only continuing on in that it has the same name, same looks, same guild, etc, but in reality, you are playing a new game from level 1 in that game. It's familiar, but it's not just an expansions of the last game. The old game would still exist and you can go back and play it anytime you want, but it will never actually expand. If there is a subscription fee, then it is a subscription fee for all games under that IP license.
I mean think about it... If they design a MMORPG from the get go to last 30 years, that means they are going to have to make the first x number of years be super dull and slow in advancement. If they don't do that, then you end up with the same failed situation we have today all over the industry where the best part of the game is the initial leveling up experience. After that, you are left with minor upgrades and insignificant character advancement.
For instance, early on in EQ, fear was an annoying thing that could happen to your character that added flavor to the game. After you get enough AAs to make fear no longer an issue at all (100% fear avoidance basically), where can you go with that system at that point. You have basically removed a game mechanic from the game. This is the kind of game evolution that is in all MMORPGs to date and leads to the games becoming a hollow shell of themselves after a number of expansions are released. And, lets nor forget how something so simple as getting a piece of gear early on that gave you +5 to some stat was exciting and made a noticeable difference in your character ends up being +1231241414541 to all stats a dozen expansions down the line and you see no noticeable difference at all.
To the industry to advance, they're going to have to eliminate the idea of an ever-expanding game. Instead, they should focus on an ever-evolving game IP. Gamers should go in to buying a new MMORPG with the expectation that the game they are buying is a one off game that is part of an IP they enjoy. The next expansion is actually a new game that follows the same IP, but is slightly different and/or evolved in some way. Your character can continue on from the last game, but it is only continuing on in that it has the same name, same looks, same guild, etc, but in reality, you are playing a new game from level 1 in that game. It's familiar, but it's not just an expansions of the last game. The old game would still exist and you can go back and play it anytime you want, but it will never actually expand. If there is a subscription fee, then it is a subscription fee for all games under that IP license.
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Daidraco
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Even developers have been saying that "theory" of yours. Yet no one seems to have come up with anything that stands the test of time for a large audience. EverQuest and WoW have been the longest runners in this scenario and they both use the +1 upgrade tradition. The exact reason that people that have been playing this genre for 20 years have gotten so apathetic about doing Mythic difficulties etc.
The last real breakthrough for games in general was back in the 90's. Whether you want to say that was the advent of 3D gaming, or the use of the Internet for gaming. Nothing but a different flavor of the same formula has been done for the last 20 years, though. In my opinion, the only time I'll probably get "hooked" on gaming like I was with EverQuest will be when we have another technological innovation. Its not VR - I still feel bad to this day that I got my mom to buy that stupid ass VR headset for the sega genesis. Or hell, (cause I didnt learn my lesson apparently) I bought a $400 set of fucking goggles that just sit in the box and just get used as bragging rights. No one wants to race home after a mentally/physically exhausting day, move furniture if they need to, just to play fucking beat saber. Even though its a fun ass game if you're in a good mood.
But if we're just speaking the newest flavor of game to take over, only? I think Riot has something up its sleeve, and Blizzard has gotten a hold of the design ideas on it. As both seem to be making a similar product. We're looking at EQ Next dialed up to 11, done by companies that actually have the capacity to fucking make the product. World of Warcraft has had a declining population for years now, and Shadowlands hurt its population so bad that a good expansion isnt even bringing people back. Riots League of Legends still gets played, but has no where near the players, nor the attention, that it once had. They both need a new flagship, so I truly expect them to be dumping a lot of resources into their upcoming product.
Caeden
Silver Baronet of the Realm
- 7,369
- 11,941
Another thread of armchair game design for a dying genre. Be sure to format your posts with 3 or more paragraphs. Peak autism is encouraged. At least one EQ server drama and one WoW sever drama derail.
< unclerico>If the RL woulda just made me MT, we’d a been server first.</unclerico >
< unclerico>If the RL woulda just made me MT, we’d a been server first.</unclerico >
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Grizzlebeard
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 2,185
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Jasker
brown Officer please /brown
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My thread was a emo post about how we've been talking about games and they're not delivered.
Maybe don't joke or condescend Autism. When any rational adult human being sees you doing it they think less of you and wonder where your parents were as a child. I'm just trying to educate you since nobody else did.
Caeden
Silver Baronet of the Realm
- 7,369
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Hekotat
FoH nuclear response team
- 12,048
- 11,521
Corporate takeover just fucked up the entire industry. They saw the success of WoW and everyone wanted a piece, except corporate, money hungry suits don't have any creativity.
So we see clone after clone of WoW. Now we are starting to see the death spiral of the entire Industry as they cater towards the gambling crowd. Now most talent has left these companies due to politics or shit hours or whatever other corporate hell they are dealing with.
It's really disappointing knowing what could have been had the suits not gotten involved.
So we see clone after clone of WoW. Now we are starting to see the death spiral of the entire Industry as they cater towards the gambling crowd. Now most talent has left these companies due to politics or shit hours or whatever other corporate hell they are dealing with.
It's really disappointing knowing what could have been had the suits not gotten involved.
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Caeden
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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- 11,941
I don’t have it in me to raid. What I want is a small group focused game. A mix of instanced and open world content. It’d be cool to have critical open world bosses and dungeons but have a selection of procedurally generated instances for 5-6 players. Perhaps the group leader could make a few selections at the zone in about mobs and time length. It would be like a DM setting up a random zone. Item rewards would be a mix of preset and random loot. You could only zone from within the world and perhaps the most lucrative would be at the end of an open zone dungeon.
Classes would exist, but talent trees would allow a large degree of choice. Spells might even should be all talent points. Perhaps a “role” tree and “class” tree. I dunno. First get the content right.
Classes would exist, but talent trees would allow a large degree of choice. Spells might even should be all talent points. Perhaps a “role” tree and “class” tree. I dunno. First get the content right.
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Daidraco
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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This is actually one area I could see MMO's hugely benefit from. If you have AI controlled NPC's that act like real people - then the game would be immensely more real. The immersion of a living, breathing world would be something inspirational and at the same time, creepingly scary because of how much it might draw people into it.
Im torn on two fronts because 1. Its livelihood is being camped like a motherfucker by the people that want to control its growth. Then the trademarks, copyrights, and ongoing lawsuits surrounding it. 2. It needs an immense amount of computing power and storage in order to operate. The companies that are able to use it are by no surprise, the ones with the largest data farms. As someone just linked in the chat gpt thread, a single file for ChatGPT out of multiple has a total of 2.2 Petabytes of data. Keep in mind that a 30 TB SSD is about the ceiling and only has a R/W of ~2000mbps from what I have read. (Correct me if Im wrong, please.)
But, in Activision Blizzards case - the Microsoft deal seems to be full steam ahead. So this may come to pass a lot sooner than we could imagine.
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Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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- 34,856
The genre is actually in the midst of a "resurgence", but it's mostly coming from places like Japan and Korea. The problem is, you have a bunch of boomers so stuck in the whole, "EVERYTHING NEEDS TO EXIST EXACTLY LIKE IT USED TO!" mindset that they can't enjoy anything that is even remotely different.
And beyond just the designers who are designing games to "last forever", you also have players with an expectation/assumption that a game should last forever. Rather than being content that it's ok for you to get 500+ hours (which is INSANE value, btw) of fun out of the game. It's is actually ok for a game to "end" or you to quit.
And beyond just the designers who are designing games to "last forever", you also have players with an expectation/assumption that a game should last forever. Rather than being content that it's ok for you to get 500+ hours (which is INSANE value, btw) of fun out of the game. It's is actually ok for a game to "end" or you to quit.
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uniqueuser
Vyemm Raider
- 1,737
- 4,889
Asian MMOs have been trash since the very start and always will be. If the gacha grinder garbage isn't enough to turn off a normal Westerner, it's the faggot weeb stylizations comically mismatched with plagiarized Western fantasy themes that does it.
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Mist
Eeyore Enthusiast
- 30,415
- 22,206
I wanna make an MMO that lasts a month and then resets. Let people sign up for four different types of month-long campaigns:
Full lootable PvP
Factional limited lootable PvP
Corpse-Retrieval PvE
Carebear PvE
A campaign costs 10 dollars to sign up for.
Let the loot RNG go wild. Let players find shit that gets OP as fuck. Write the time-looping nature of the game into the story and seasonal content somehow. Have miniscule amounts of carry-over between seasons, like a single stat or perk point + earned cosmetic shit.
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RobXIII
Urinal Cake Consumption King
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I don't think there will be another long term home like EQ, and most of us will be nothing but dust by the time Pantstheon releases
Asian MMOs are usually trash, because by the time we get them in NA, everything is known about them and the leveling / gear process turns into one long, boring Work List. No more mysteries. An upcoming one from Japan called Blue Protocol looks neat, and I'm hoping it'll release here shortly after Japan, but who knows. I usually quit after a month anyway.
TLEs were holding my interest for shorter and shorter times, and I'll definitely be skipping the EQ1 garbage one this go around.
Asian MMOs are usually trash, because by the time we get them in NA, everything is known about them and the leveling / gear process turns into one long, boring Work List. No more mysteries. An upcoming one from Japan called Blue Protocol looks neat, and I'm hoping it'll release here shortly after Japan, but who knows. I usually quit after a month anyway.
TLEs were holding my interest for shorter and shorter times, and I'll definitely be skipping the EQ1 garbage one this go around.
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