GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

He's got a very half assed redemption arc in the show.

In S1/2 they painted him as someone you're supposed to hate. I mean he's a real shit all around. Then they started to paint him as someone you can empathize with. I mean they chopped off his hand and how can a cripple be evil? And now they're painting him as someone that you could respect.

He'll be good guy greg by the end of season 8. The only question is does he kill cersi or does he just defang her? He'll probably kill her because that's more "dramatic". But the story would be better if he somehow managed to defang her, send her home, and rehabilitate her.

Debase_sl said:

That's fair. I think even book Jaime has a long way to go to really redeem himself even in his own eyes.

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I should say he has* one. As in it is still ongoing in the books. The show is just fucking stupid, honestly. Waste of a character.

EDIT: The reason I came to love Jaime in the books is because of his inner monologues during his POV chapters. Really helps to explain why he is the way he is, and he carries around a burden that really isn't his to bear.

Jaime is great in the show and most assuredly has had a redemption arc, though it isn't over. He still went back for Brienne, gave her his sword, didn't throw her in jail or hurt her when he saw her again. Decided not to massacre Riverrun.

Would it have been better if they spelled it all out for you by him saying out loud his internal monologue that we saw in the books? Come on. This is yet another example of people saying "everything is spelled out in the show, no subtlety!" and then other people saying "if it isn't explicitly said, it must be a plot hole" crap.

Jaime being awesome in both those scenes and that is a very different character from this season.

I think some people thought Jaime's scene with Edmure was Jaime showing "the dark side" again. To me, it was Jaime saying what he had to say to end the siege of Riverrun with minimal (almost no) casualties. Combined with his scenes involving Brienne it re-established that he is a decent person who has also done some indecent things, while reminding us that, yes, he does have a vice in his love for Cersei to help be a reminder/set-up for when he has to (what most people assume) kill her to stop her from burning King's Landing or killing Tommen or some other evil act. A good way for Jaime's arc to end would be for him to die or give his life (not sure being a martyr quite fits his character but that's why its an arc) in some way that it causes him to be remembered as a hero to people and not as a traitor/Kingslayer/sister-fucker/whatever.

SimSimSalabim_sl said:

To me, it was Jaime saying what he had to say to end the siege of Riverrun with minimal (almost no) casualties.

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Of course it was. The show expected you to be smart enough to figure this out, instead of explicitly spelling it out. Yet we have people complaining about how the show isn't subtle, now saying that Jaime didn't have an arc.

That's not my issue with Jaime. My issue with Jaime is he's Cersei's lapdog, where as he's for the most part grown apart from her in the books at this point. He's just a much weaker character in the show currently.

I'm just saying it is very easy to forget what protagonists do because you get a greater backstory and a greater sense of good. But in reality even story protagonists are often interested in #1. But their motives are more justified to the audience. Jon Snow killed thousands of wildlings. Many of which were only trying to get behind the wall for protection. How many widows and orphans did Jon Snow create (on both sides) taking Winterfell so he could unfurl those Stark banners? Robb Stark tore the kingdom asunder to avenge his father who's accusation rested upon hair color. This one is easy to defend because weknowthe Cersei bred Baratheon line is that of incest but lets pretend we weren't given that fact on a silver platter. Imagine a typical denizen of Westeros when he hears that Ned Stark was trying to usurp the throne off rumor and conjecture. Would he still be the good guy? Would Robb be seen as the upstart defending his father's tainted legacy?

The main problem with Jaime is that they made Cersei less of a psychotic slut. The Kettleblacks and all that never came into the show, thus Cersei stayed a more sympathetic character. But without her being a raging cunt, there is no opportunity for Jaime to be redeemed. So basically, you get a much more interesting and complex Cersei at the price of a more boring Jaime. The book Cersei is pretty one dimensional and almost cartoonishly evil.

There needs to be something else and it is far too late in the show for Cersei to be what she is in the books. So Jaime will turn on Cersei but probably not till after her final child dies, she loses it and tries to set Kings Landing on fire.

It won't happen but I think it would also be interesting to see her final child die and it just breaks her. Just everything goes out of her and Jaime can't even get her out of bed. Full on catatonic withdrawl. And since he's the only Lannister left, really, I guess he becomes the King somehow. And we see that without Cersi's direct influence, he's actually a pretty good king. He's seen enough fucked up shit, ya know... it cost him his entire family. So you get it both with the incestuous twins -- you get hope and you get despair.

But he'll just fucking stab her in the back. I mean literally. They've made a big enough point about how he stabbed his own king in the back that he's going to wind up doing it to his sister as well. They don't have enough time left to do it the other way, anyway.

Iannis_sl said:

He'll be good guy greg by the end of season 8. The only question is does he kill cersi or does he just defang her? He'll probably kill her because that's more "dramatic". But the story would be better if he somehow managed to defang her, send her home, and rehabilitate her.

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I would argue that choking the life out of his twin sister to prevent her from potentially killing thousands of innocent people is both dramatic and powerful. It also would also serve as a nice juxtaposition to his being the "Kingslayer". I'm not sure that Cersei has any redeeming quality to deserve an opportunity for rehabilitation.

Yeah. I mean I see it. But if he can accomplish the same goal with less violence, isn't that more noble? We just had an episode that touched on exactly that. And is forgiveness or love really about deserve? Isn't vengeance about deserve?

It's HBO. They'll go for the violence. It's part of what makes Jaime so half-assed. They have to take so many shortcuts with this many characters and I think Jaime really does suffer for it.

khalid_sl said:

Jaime is great in the show and most assuredly has had a redemption arc, though it isn't over. He still went back for Brienne, gave her his sword, didn't throw her in jail or hurt her when he saw her again. Decided not to massacre Riverrun.

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I think Jaime did the practical, pragmatic thing honestly. He had no interest wasting the time or troops sieging a castle for years. I don't view his decision to end it without bloodshed to be some noble cause.... more just expedient. As for Brienne, I think she is the cliche "girl from the wrong side of the tracks". She may even serve as part of the catalyst for his redemption.

The books and show both go to great lengths to illustrate that Jaime is a complex character capable of making the right or wrong choice at any given point. Unfortunately, the show makes it looks like complex than incoherent.

Iannis_sl said:

Yeah. I mean I see it. But if he can accomplish the same goal with less violence, isn't that more noble? We just had an episode that touched on exactly that. And is forgiveness or love really about deserve? Isn't vengeance about deserve?

It's HBO. They'll go for the violence. It's part of what makes Jaime so half-assed. They have to take so many shortcuts with this many characters and I think Jaime really does suffer for it.

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I would suspect it to be a moment of passion where there doesn't appear to be any other way. Something like "Cersei burns Great Sept to ground killing Tommen. People revolt again her as "the crown". She prepares to burn the peasants alive. Jaime tries to persuade her otherwise, but she has gone full on Mad Queen after losing her last child and he is forced to kill her to stop her." I think it makes his decision even harder to put the lives of thousands of innocents against the life of his twin sister. Its a more cruel, but stark choice where there is a right and a wrong choice morally.

Knowing HBO, they'll fuck it up and Jaime will kill her when he could have just smacked her in the face and tied her up before sending her back to Lannisport like the cunt she is.

Except that judging from Bran's vision, she does succeed in setting off at least some of the wildfire. In which case Jaime may not just be stopping her from killing anyone else, he may also be executing her for what she has done, especially if she causes Tommen's death.

She has to succeed at least partially with detonating some of the wildfire---she still has to fulfill Maggy the Frog's prophecy. She sets of the wildfire and it only successfully kills off the high sparrow and his latest and most powerful convert: King Tommen. She kills her own son, season redeemed.

khorum_sl said:

She has to succeed at least partially with detonating some of the wildfire---she still has to fulfill Maggy the Frog's prophecy. She sets of the wildfire and it only successfully kills off the high sparrow and his latest and most powerful convert: King Tommen. She kills her own son, season redeemed.

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I was thinking the same thing. She has it set off while he happens to go pray or something

Itlan_sl said:

In the book he had a redemption arc. In the show, he's Cersei's little bitch.

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He has no redemption. His fate is becoming the head of the Lannister family. He is slowly morphing into Tywin and that doesn't square with redemption. He has spent his entire life avoiding the game while his father. sister, brother were all involved. Now he leading the biggest army in the seven kingdoms and what he just did in taking that castle would have made his father so proud of him for finally being the son he always wanted.

Jamie isn't a complete bastard but nether was Tywin. But he will still murder small children and his former squires if he think that is what he needs to do. Because at his core he is truly his fathers son.