Greece - A New Hope

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
14,730
31,802
The Germans actually work. Pretty big difference.
Yeah, at the heart of it all this is the primary difference. Germans are willing to dig themselves out of a hole if given the chance, while Greeks will just keep digging a deeper one. Culture matters.

Personally, I feel that Germany should have been dissolved after trying to conquer the world for the 2nd time, with the land being divvied up amongst European nations and a small portion becoming Israel (instead of the middle east). But that's another tale for a different thread..
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,626
51,019
Yeah I wasn't comparing German debt to Greek debt, just illustrating that it makes it kind of funny for Germany to take such a hardline stance on it. Hasn't Greece already had a substantial amount of debt forgiveness?
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
Yeah but instead of salting the earth we rebuilt our half of the country.
That was the back-up plan after someone in America realised that they needed a speedbump for the Commies. The original plan was 'pastoralization' which was a nice little turn of phrase which basically meant "We're going to turn you into a third-world country and starve half your population to death just so that you'renevera threat again".

No,really- that was Plan A:Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,626
51,019
That was the back-up plan after someone in America realised that they needed a speedbump for the Commies. The original plan was 'pastoralization' which was a nice little turn of phrase which basically meant "We're going to turn you into a third-world country and starve half your population to death just so that you'renevera threat again".

No,really- that was Plan A:Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Given the context of the times, I don't think the plan was really that monstrous. Short sighted though, which is why I'm glad they ultimately included Germany to the Marshall plan.

Since you're doing that snooty British thing again, maybe I'll point out that Churchill agreed with the Morgenthau plan.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
Briton in "Doesn't like Germans" shocker.
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Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
14,730
31,802
That was the back-up plan after someone in America realised that they needed a speedbump for the Commies. The original plan was 'pastoralization' which was a nice little turn of phrase which basically meant "We're going to turn you into a third-world country and starve half your population to death just so that you'renevera threat again".

No,really- that was Plan A:Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To be fair, if you were an American, European, or Russian that lived through WW II and was just revealed the untold atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis, "pastoralization" sounds like a pretty good plan/punishment. They had just tried raping the world for the second time in 25 years and were responsible for genocide and millions of deaths. Fuck yeah we should dissolve your country and turn it into Europe's bread basket.

Edit: Gav kinda beat me to it..
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Meh. They border 4-7 other "german" countries depending on your view of Belgium, Luxembourg, and Czech. Not seeing how they melting pot anything.
 

Chanur

Shit Posting Professional
<Gold Donor>
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Wouldn't have taken much to starve Germany to Death they essentially already were thanks to the British.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Yeah, at the heart of it all this is the primary difference. Germans are willing to dig themselves out of a hole if given the chance, while Greeks will just keep digging a deeper one. Culture matters.

Personally, I feel that Germany should have been dissolved after trying to conquer the world for the 2nd time, with the land being divvied up amongst European nations and a small portion becoming Israel (instead of the middle east). But that's another tale for a different thread..
The reason that it wasn't is that they kind of tried that the first time, and it led to the second time.

You gotta remember. Germans have been killing each other for longer than there has been a Germany. Go ahead and thank Napoleon for finally unifying them and turning their attention outwards.

Patoralization would have just led to a third installment. A guerilla war followed by an uneasy new arrangement followed by a new Kaiser. You ain't gonna keep Germans from drinking or fucking.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,626
51,019
The reason that it wasn't is that they kind of tried that the first time, and it led to the second time.

You gotta remember. Germans have been killing each other for longer than there has been a Germany. Go ahead and thank Napoleon for finally unifying them and turning their attention outwards.

Patoralization would have just led to a third installment. A guerilla war followed by an uneasy new arrangement followed by a new Kaiser. You ain't gonna keep Germans from drinking or fucking.
Nah bro, under the Morgenthau plan there would be no more Germany. Germans may have still been able to fight one another, but they never would have been able to group up to fight others again.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,844
34,780
The reason that it wasn't is that they kind of tried that the first time, and it led to the second time.

You gotta remember. Germans have been killing each other for longer than there has been a Germany. Go ahead and thank Napoleon for finally unifying them and turning their attention outwards.

Patoralization would have just led to a third installment. A guerilla war followed by an uneasy new arrangement followed by a new Kaiser. You ain't gonna keep Germans from drinking or fucking.
Yes, the real solution is like what's going on in Britain right now. SJWs (sexless) protect the Muslim immigrants (who don't drink) thus eventually creating a society of sex-crazed, humorless fascists. Oh, shit...
 

Ossoi

Tranny Chaser
16,337
8,113
The definitive word on the Greek crisisMark Blyth | Why Greece Isn't to Blame for the Crisis

TLDR: Stop blaming Greece, French/German banks were bailed out not the Greek State

When the anti-austerity party Syriza came to power in Greece in January 2015, Cornel Ban and I wrote in a Foreign Affairs article that, at some point, Europe was bound to face an Alexis Tsipras, the party's leader and Greek prime minister, "because there's only so long you can ask people to vote for impoverishment today based on promises of a better tomorrow that never arrives." Despite attempts by the eurogroup, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund since February 2015 to harangue Greece into ever more austerity, the Greeks voted by an even bigger margin than they voted for Syriza to say "no" once more. So the score is now democracy 2, austerity 0. But now what? To answer that question, we need to be clear about what this crisis is and what it is not. Surprisingly, despite endless lazy moralizing commentary to the contrary, Greece has very little to do with the crisis that bears its name. To see why, it is best to follow the money-and those who bank it.

The roots of the crisis lie far away from Greece; they lie in the architecture of European banking. When the euro came into existence in 1999, not only did the Greeks get to borrow like the Germans, everyone's banks got to borrow and lend in what was effectively a cheap foreign currency. And with super-low rates, countries clamoring to get into the euro, and a continent-wide credit boom underway, it made sense for national banks to expand private lending as far as the euro could reach.


So European banks' asset footprints (loans and other assets) expanded massively throughout the first decade of the euro, especially into the European periphery. Indeed, according the Bank of International Settlements, by 2010 when the crisis hit, French banks held the equivalent of nearly 465 billion euros in so-called impaired periphery assets, while German banks had 493 billion on their books. Only a small part of those impaired assets were Greek, and here's the rub: Greece made up two percent of the eurozone in 2010, and Greece's revised budget deficit that year was 15 percent of the country's GDP-that's 0.3 percent of the eurozone's economy. In other words, the Greek deficit was a rounding error, not a reason to panic. Unless, of course, the folks holding Greek debts, those big banks in the eurozone core, had, over the prior decade, grown to twice the size (in terms of assets) of-and with operational leverage ratios (assets divided by liabilities) twice as high as-their "too big to fail" American counterparts, which they had done. In such an over-levered world, if Greece defaulted, those banks would need to sell other similar sovereign assets to cover the losses. But all those sell contracts hitting the market at once would trigger a bank run throughout the bond markets of the eurozone that could wipe out core European banks.

Clearly something had to be done to stop the rot, and that something was the troika program for Greece, which succeeded in stopping the bond market bank run-keeping the Greeks in and the yields down-at the cost of making a quarter of Greeks unemployed and destroying nearly a third of the country's GDP. Consequently, Greece is now just 1.7 percent of the eurozone, and the standoff of the past few months has been over tax and spending mixes of a few billion euros. Why, then, was there no deal for Greece, especially when the IMF's own research has said that these policies are at best counterproductive, and how has such a small economy managed to generate such a mortal threat to the euro?

Greece was a mere conduit for a bailout. It was not a recipient of funds in any significant way, despite what is constantly repeated in the media.Part of the story, as we wrote in January, was the political risk that Syriza presented, which threatened to embolden other anti-creditor coalitions across Europe, such as Podemos in Spain. But another part lay in what the European elites buried deep within their supposed bailouts for Greece. Namely,the bailouts weren't for Greece at all. They were bailouts-on-the-quiet for Europe's big banks, and taxpayers in core countries are now being stuck with the bill since the Greeks have refused to pay. It is this hidden game that lies at the heart of Greece's decision to say "no" and Europe's inability to solve the problem.

Greece was given two bailouts. The first lasted from May 2010 through June 2013 and consisted of a 30 billion euro-Stand By Agreement from the IMF and 80 billion euro in bilateral loans from other EU governments. The second lasted from 2012 until the end of 2014 (in practice, it lasted until a few days ago) and comprised another 19.8 billion euro from the IMF and another 144.7 billion euro disbursed from an entity set up in late 2010 called the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF, now the European Stability Mechanism, ESM). Not all of these funds were disbursed. The final figure "loaned" to Greece was around 230 billion euro.



The EFSF was a company the EU set up in Luxemburg "to preserve financial stability in Europe's economic and monetary union" by issuing bonds to the tune of 440 billion euro that would generate loans to countries in trouble. So what did they do with that funding? They raised bonds to bail Greece's creditors-the banks of France and Germany mainly-via loans to Greece. Greece was thus a mere conduit for a bailout. It was not a recipient in any significant way, despite what is constantly repeated in the media. Of the roughly 230 billion euro disbursed to Greece, it is estimated that only 27 billion went toward keeping the Greek state running. Indeed, by 2013 Greece was running a surplus and did not need such financing. Accordingly, 65 percent of the loans to Greece went straight through Greece to core banks for interest payments, maturing debt, and for domestic bank recapitalization demanded by the lenders. By another accounting, 90 percent of the "loans to Greece" bypassed Greece entirely.

Telling though those numbers are, they still miss the fact that, after Mario Draghi took over from Jean Claude Trichet at the ECB in late 2011, Draghi dumped around 1.2 trillion euro of public money into the European banking system to bring down yields in the Long Term Refinancing Operations (LTROs). Bond yields went down and bond prices soon went up. This delighted bondholders, who got to sell their now LTRO-boosted bonds back to the governments that had just bailed them out. In March 2012, the Greek government, under the auspices of the troika, launched a buy-back scheme that bought out creditors, private and national central banks, at a 53.4 percent discount to the face value of the bond. In doing so, 164 billion euro of debt was handed over from the private sector to the EFSF. That debt now sits in the successor facility to the EFSF, the European Stability Mechanism, where it causes much instability. So if we want to understand why the combined powers of the eurozone can't deal with a problem the size of a U.S. defense contract overrun, it's probably wise to start here and not with corrupt Greeks or Swabian housewives' financial wisdom. As former Bundesbank Chief Karl Otto P?hl admitted, the whole shebang "was about protecting German banks, but especially the French banks, from debt write-offs."

Think about it this way. If 230 billion euro had been given to Greece, it would have amounted to just under 21,000 euros per person. Given such largess, it would have been impossible to generate a 25 percent unemployment rate among adults, over 50 percent unemployment among youth, a sharp increase in elderly poverty, and a near collapse of the banking system-even with the troika's austerity package in place.



To fix the problem, someone in core Europe is going to have to own up to all of the above and admit that their money wasn't given to lazy Greeks but to already-bailed bankers who, despite a face-value haircut, ended up making a profit on the deal.
Doing so would, however, also entail admitting that by shifting, quite deliberately, responsibility from reckless lenders to irresponsible (national) borrowers, Europe regenerated exactly the type of petty nationalism, in which moral Germans face off against corrupt Greeks, that the EU was designed to eliminate. And owning up to that, especially when mainstream parties' vote shares are dwindling and parties such as Syriza are ascendant, simply isn't going to happen. So what is?

Despite Germany being a serial defaulter that received debt relief four times in the twentieth century, Chancellor Angela Merkel is not about to cop to bailing out D-Bank and pinning it on the Greeks. Neither is French President Francois Hollande or anyone else. In short, the possibilities for a sensible solution are fading by the day, and the inevitability of Grexit looms large. It is telling that Tsipras and his colleagues repeatedly used the phrase "48 hours"-sometimes "72 hours"-as the deadline for getting a new deal with creditors once the vote was in. This number referred to how long Greek banks could probably stay solvent once the score went to 2-0.

At the time of writing, the ECB is not only violating its own statutes by limiting emergency liquidity assistance to Greek banks, but is also raising the haircuts on Greek collateral offered for new cash. In other words, the ECB, far from being an independent central bank, is acting as the eurogroup's enforcer, despite the risk that doing so poses to the European project as a whole.We've never understood Greece because we have refused to see the crisis for what it was-a continuation of a series of bailouts for the financial sector that started in 2008 and that rumbles on today. It's so much easier to blame the Greeks and then be surprised when they refuse to play along with the script.
 

kitsune

Golden Knight of the Realm
624
35
I have not been following greece's buttfucks for quite a while but I can't wait until the country is financially raped so that I can go there for mega cheap vacations. When they all switched to the euro they for sure rounded up. Back when greece and spain had drachmer and pesos, things were quite cheap and going on charter vacations made a lot of sense. Today the prices are the same as at home, so nothing really to gain!
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
That's still a Greek bailout though. Even if they are being used as a conduit, they are being used as a conduit. All that article is really saying is that they're complicit in a larger fraud.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
<Bronze Donator>
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Germany clearly needs to check its privilege, right Ossoi?
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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That's still a Greek bailout though. Even if they are being used as a conduit, they are being used as a conduit. All that article is really saying is that they're complicit in a larger fraud.
This is the problem with pyramid schemes when middle block number 47 gets upset they are not block number 14.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
An offer to swap Greece for Puerto Rico
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German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and French finmin Michel Sapin have been talking at the Bundesbank. [Schaeuble] said that debt sustainability is not feasible without a haircut, and agreed with the IMF's analysis on this point - but said that it was not possible under European rules.

...In what is hopefully a touch of that famous German humour, he added: "I said to Jack Lew that the we'll take Puerto Rico if the US takes Greece in the dollar area - he thought I was joking, but politicians sometimes come up with innovative solutions."
Greece news live: Germans in rift with the rest of Europe over debt relief proposals after US intervention - Telegraph
 

khorum

Murder Apologist
24,338
81,363
Puerto Rico has 4.2% uncollected tax receipts according to the OECD. That's 0.4% more than the Germans sure, prolly because it's warmer and accounts for the latin need for afternoon naps, but at least it means the ricans pay their VAT taxes (IVU in Spanish) and it's roughly 76% better than the Greeks. They passed their own austerity measures in February of this year that added that IVU __AND__ imposed cuts on entitlement and discretionary spending.

Shockingly, they also tax ALL their industry. It's amazing, I know. Since finance and manufacturing are as integral to the Puerto Rican identity as the naval tradition is to the Greeks, you'd think they would've shot themselves in the foot by making either of those industries tax exempt in their constitution---like the Greeks did with shipping. But nope, not only are they taxable, but most of their taxes have been collected too.