Skill-based systems have one fatal flaw - you can"t start new servers without hoping and praying that there are no holes in the skill progression where there"s an uncounterable strategy because the time it takes to train for the counter is longer than the time it takes to train for the strategy. That"s a huge assumption.
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
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That doesn"t make much sense to me, maybe I"m too stupid, or some words are mixed for others in there. Is new servers=new chars?Wodin said:
Anyway, skill based doesn"t have to be slow. UO was skill based, and you could macro everything in a matter of days, with a very few exceptions like magic resist which sucked to train. Obviously tho, this kind of skill based system greatly reduces the emphasis on char developement, unless it"s item based, which is generally retarded imo(much harder to balance things when most of your stats are based off the items you gain). Skill based games are good systems generally for sandbox type pvp games tho, while class based generally end up being better for group based consentual/semi consentual pvp games, such as most of the RVR stuff.
He"s thinking of what happened with EVE when they made the Chinese server, where they were able to train skills to anchor large deathstar POS structures before anyone could train the skills necessary to destroy said structures, and so people were able to take space and nobody was able to recapture it for a long time.
I think Eve might be more unique in that respect given its extremely broad range of gameplay. I"d say there are more pressing problems with a skill-based system than that.
Genjiro
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Eve is an interesting game, and Im glad its there for people who apparently enjoy it. I have tried it a few different times and just cant get into it because it is a model of how not to involve new players into a mmo. If you dont have a giant hard-on for space pewpewlasers along with a healthy dose of Viagra and desire to keep it that way, most mmo players will simply get bored and move on within a day or two.
The same morons on this board who continually say they loathe EQ for needing a group for most content are some of the same ones who play Eve and laugh at people in Eve calling them names etc while at the same time telling them to "go get a group and pvp in eve or you will be bored to tears". Pot meet kettle etc.
I also think the realtime skill system is the stupidest fucking idea ever implemented in a mmo as far as progression is concerned.
The same morons on this board who continually say they loathe EQ for needing a group for most content are some of the same ones who play Eve and laugh at people in Eve calling them names etc while at the same time telling them to "go get a group and pvp in eve or you will be bored to tears". Pot meet kettle etc.
I also think the realtime skill system is the stupidest fucking idea ever implemented in a mmo as far as progression is concerned.
One of the debates that seems to flow in the undercurrent of these skill/class based arguments is that of players being able to play with "everyone".
I am not sure that you could do that in a way that didn"t make a veteran players existance and accomplishments borderline meaningless. I mean if I can log on and within an hour or two of starting a game I was capable of grouping with you, someone who"d been at it for a year or more, is that a good thing? Yes there are definite pluses to it but do they outweigh the negatives?
I thought Mentoring was an initial stopgap solution but as I played it grew on me to become a very very cool tool that allowed me to do this exact thing while actually reinforcing the time and effort I had put in as a good thing.
I also think that pushing this is another way to try and "please everyone" while in the end pleasing no one.
You have to plant your flag at some point, with regards to your target audience, and I don"t think you have to take direct aim at any one sector of players. You can reign in a massive audience of players from every type of play style and fan base without fracturing your game into 102 styles of game play, dabbling some in each but never in depth in any.
WoW, once again, proved it could be done. I think it was done as much technically as it was within the game. The barrier to entry on the technical side was so low that unlike many other games, I don"t think it ever lost anyone because they weren"t running a machine that didn"t meet the specs needed. That"s huge. We as gamers tend to think people fidget with their machines, and swap out their machines as often as we do, when in fact I think we are very much in the minority.
I am not sure that you could do that in a way that didn"t make a veteran players existance and accomplishments borderline meaningless. I mean if I can log on and within an hour or two of starting a game I was capable of grouping with you, someone who"d been at it for a year or more, is that a good thing? Yes there are definite pluses to it but do they outweigh the negatives?
I thought Mentoring was an initial stopgap solution but as I played it grew on me to become a very very cool tool that allowed me to do this exact thing while actually reinforcing the time and effort I had put in as a good thing.
I also think that pushing this is another way to try and "please everyone" while in the end pleasing no one.
You have to plant your flag at some point, with regards to your target audience, and I don"t think you have to take direct aim at any one sector of players. You can reign in a massive audience of players from every type of play style and fan base without fracturing your game into 102 styles of game play, dabbling some in each but never in depth in any.
WoW, once again, proved it could be done. I think it was done as much technically as it was within the game. The barrier to entry on the technical side was so low that unlike many other games, I don"t think it ever lost anyone because they weren"t running a machine that didn"t meet the specs needed. That"s huge. We as gamers tend to think people fidget with their machines, and swap out their machines as often as we do, when in fact I think we are very much in the minority.
I think the mentor system from EQ2 is a superior idea to most that have been presented for allowing people to play together from different level ranges. And I totally agree with Genjiro about EVE"s realtime leveling system. Worst progression method ever conceived of.
Mentoring can work, but sidekicking should be avoided. Let higher level people come down, but don"t let lower level people go up. It can ruin the content and the feeling of "earning" the ability to go to new places and see new things.
A lot of folks love Eve"s system because it allows progress without a huge in game commitment. Or you progress while doing other things.
It is a very dev friendly system because you can calculate to the minute when your customers are going to get certain skills. It puts a limiter on everyone and in a lot of ways leveled the playing field.
Having said that it is damn hard and a bit newb unfriendly knowing that to get to certain skills might take years and while you are doing that others are advancing even further. Yes, you can be useful quickly, but if you want to play with the big boys quickly...you can"t really do it. You can"t play 24x7 for a bit and be able to compete on a level field with anything the long term player chooses to bring to the table. You might be able to match him in one area...but all he has to do is hit a base and pull out something else and you can"t compete.
At the start of the game it can be a very wonderful system. A few years down the road it becomes an impediment to new players. Its like AA"s in EQ but without the ability to create them at a pace you can choose.
And honestly....thats fine. Its a different take on skills in gaming and a lot of people love it. We need these alternate paths and games so that the people that love stuff like this have a place to call home. Its a long term game that won"t allow you to be the superstud hero after a couple of months of hardcore playing.
It is a very dev friendly system because you can calculate to the minute when your customers are going to get certain skills. It puts a limiter on everyone and in a lot of ways leveled the playing field.
Having said that it is damn hard and a bit newb unfriendly knowing that to get to certain skills might take years and while you are doing that others are advancing even further. Yes, you can be useful quickly, but if you want to play with the big boys quickly...you can"t really do it. You can"t play 24x7 for a bit and be able to compete on a level field with anything the long term player chooses to bring to the table. You might be able to match him in one area...but all he has to do is hit a base and pull out something else and you can"t compete.
At the start of the game it can be a very wonderful system. A few years down the road it becomes an impediment to new players. Its like AA"s in EQ but without the ability to create them at a pace you can choose.
And honestly....thats fine. Its a different take on skills in gaming and a lot of people love it. We need these alternate paths and games so that the people that love stuff like this have a place to call home. Its a long term game that won"t allow you to be the superstud hero after a couple of months of hardcore playing.
As long as I can actively improve my character while playing it. Skill vs. Class systems mean nothing to me. It"s basically the same thing almost.
Right on! I started playing EVE a year or two ago because I was unable to do anything satisfying in WoW without committing myself to 20 hours a week raiding. I really like being able to play an hour or two a day and feel like at least in one aspect I"m "advancing" nearly as fast as anyone without having to make the game a job.Gaereth said:
We"ve put up bio"s on the dev team folks at 38 Studios. Come on over when you get a minute and check it out.38 Studios | World Domination Through Gamingclick on inside 38 studios and then the team link there. For the most part no one got real stupid but more importantly I think it"s a decent first look inside our home in Maynard.
Nice to put a face to the team...
...but what do airlines have to do with video games or any other entertainment medium?
...but what do airlines have to do with video games or any other entertainment medium?
They did. And last night they beat my Rockies, again! :[Cybsled said:
Tomorrow could be a miserable baseball day, high of 49 and fog/snow/rain projected tonight into tomorrow in Denver.
Just wanted to say "congratulations!" to Ngruk for a job well done. Papelbon may have closed it out, but you shut the door in the game that mattered. Being in Boston for not one, but two World Series victories that you ushered in was something special, and I"ll buy your game even if it sucks horribly because of how good y"all made me feel tonight.
hehe, Gratz Curt. NOt a big Red Sox fan. Hell, not at all, but i have like Curt since he was in Philly. I am also a huge Gagne fan even though he hasnt pitched well lately. hehe
Damnit the Red Sox won again ;( When do you guys get to be called an evil empire too? Still, congrats man, you are easily one of greatest big game pitchers EVER