Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Moorgard Mobhunter said:

tl;dr - There are just as many positive stories from this industry as negative ones, so if working in games is your dream then by all means pursue it. Just go into it with your eyes open and do your homework first.

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In a word: No.

The average IT pro working in a good medium to large sized company will get more skills, build a better resume, and generally have a better quality of life. He"ll also have more time to game.

Game companies attract people due to the allure of playing. The problem is work and play are segregate. 38 studios is great, and everyone loves working there.

Everyone loved working at ION storm, too. ION Storm hired a lot of talent and insiders, and had a fabulous building in Dallas! I"d actually say those type of companies are the worst, since they are often built without proper business sense and run as a hobby and not a good company.

That kid coming out of college with a Comp Sci or Engineering degree jumps to the gaming startup with the goal of making a difference, or being involved in creating a labor of love. I"m not talking about a game designer, since that is a completely different ball of wax, just a tech person.

He works more than his peers who are generally getting better certifications and working with a variety of more in demand technical tools. Often he works with regurgitated gaming code and clueless "designers" who have documents and goals based around computer systems that might be built in the year 2090.

That large or medium sized company will generally have stability and the IT professional there will have the needed skills and resume to move from one business to another, if needed or desired.

The game programmer or IT person also does not have good stability in the game industry. Even the biggest game companies are revolving doors.

I worked in the games industry in the 90s and I"ve seen first hand why it"s generally a bad idea to go there if you are an engineering/programmer type...

There are more trails of bodies then on the beaches of Normandy in 1944.

Microsoft is great to work at.. That is unless you are an MMO person in which case their failure rate is... 100%.

The Blizzard guys would be great to hook up with, too! That is, unless you joined them and watched Hellgate: London crater.

EA is money right? I seem to remember Ultima Online 2, how"d that work out?

Brad Mcquaid can"t go wrong... er... never mind.

These are just the big fish, too... The smaller companies are even bigger risks.

As I mentioned earlier there are a lot of indy game designers and developers who won"t get touched due to the nature of the games industry.

Since it costs money to place your product on shelves and to market it, and people are happier buying Madden #27 with its few upgrades, ones chances at succeeding at a small games shop are close to zero.

I"ve worked for the same company for 10 years. I"ve worked with most of the same team for 8.

What"s the longest you"ve ever worked with any team there, Moorgard? What"s the longest you"ve seen a games group stay together?

For some people, a job is a job and working to make a toaster is the same as working to make a game. For that type of person, it doesn"t make sense to go into the game industry. No one"s arguing that point. No one is saying that the game industry is better paying or more stable than other industries. Everyone gets the point. What some people don"t seem to get is that there are also other people who don"t believe a job is just a job, who don"t think working on a toaster is as rewarding as working on a game, and who are aware of and accept the negatives of the game industry. Just because something doesn"t fit your personal priorities doesn"t mean it"s a bad decision for everyone.

splok said:

Just because something doesn"t fit your personal priorities doesn"t mean it"s a bad decision for everyone.

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Reminds me of what a friend said to me once way back in the day. "I love gay guys because the more fags there are taking it up the ass, the more women there are for the rest of us."

I love kids who go to work for the games industry. The more of them there are, the more job openings there are in corporate America.

<3

Zehn - Vhex said:

Reminds me of what a friend said to me once way back in the day. "I love gay guys because the more fags there are taking it up the ass, the more women there are for the rest of us."



<3

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I honestly don?t think you can find a flaw in that logic.

So we have all the arguements / counter-arguments for working as a programmer for game companies that produce MMOS, but what about the few of us who wish to get into the gaming industry for marketing and/or production (assistant in my case) positions.

I"ve never been interested in creating the game, I"d much rather try and showcase the work that people have been doing or perhaps help make their lives easier by streamlining production. Some of the previous ad campaigns (Blizzard everything, AoC, WAR) have garnered quite a bit of attention, both positive and negative and I would love to have a shot and creating and executing something on a national / worldwide scale like these games have done. Getting into the industry as someone who"s background doesn"t necessarily involve the production and marketing of these games is near impossible (which sucks for me personally because I"d love to get a shot at something like this as it"s been a dream since I first played FF2 on SNES).

splok said:

For some people, a job is a job and working to make a toaster is the same as working to make a game. For that type of person, it doesn"t make sense to go into the game industry. No one"s arguing that point. No one is saying that the game industry is better paying or more stable than other industries. Everyone gets the point. What some people don"t seem to get is that there are also other people who don"t believe a job is just a job, who don"t think working on a toaster is as rewarding as working on a game, and who are aware of and accept the negatives of the game industry.

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This is well said.

If your primary objective is to find the surest way of making a nice living with little risk, then the games industry should be low on your list of career options.

That, however, is not the primary motivating factor for everyone.

I"ve worked at jobs where I didn"t have a personal investment in the product or didn"t feel it provided value to the world in general. I made money, but those jobs left me personally unsatisfied.

Call me an idealistic fool, but I honestly believe games can make the world a better place. I"ve met so many people--such as folks in wheelchairs or with other disabilities--for whom MMOs are a source of joy and empowerment. By working on these games and bringing fun to even a few people, I feel I can do a little bit to make the world a better place. While of course I also need to make a living for the sake of my family, having a job I feel provides social value is something that is of high importance to me.

If my career bombs and I get booted from the games industry, I"ll find another job that makes people happy. I"d go back to selling records if I could (sadly that is becoming more and more impossible), or maybe I"d become a UPS delivery driver.

Everybody"s happy to see the UPS guy!

Moorgard Mobhunter said:

This is well said.

If your primary objective is to find the surest way of making a nice living with little risk, then the games industry should be low on your list of career options.

That, however, is not the primary motivating factor for everyone.

I"ve worked at jobs where I didn"t have a personal investment in the product or didn"t feel it provided value to the world in general. I made money, but those jobs left me personally unsatisfied.

Call me an idealistic fool, but I honestly believe games can make the world a better place. I"ve met so many people--such as folks in wheelchairs or with other disabilities--for whom MMOs are a source of joy and empowerment. By working on these games and bringing fun to even a few people, I feel I can do a little bit to make the world a better place. While of course I also need to make a living for the sake of my family, having a job I feel provides social value is something that is of high importance to me.

If my career bombs and I get booted from the games industry, I"ll find another job that makes people happy. I"d go back to selling records if I could (sadly that is becoming more and more impossible), or maybe I"d become a UPS delivery driver.

Everybody"s happy to see the UPS guy!

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I wonder if there is any sort of numbers on how many kids in the Make a Wish program have their wish be video game related? That would be an interesting study.

Moorgard Mobhunter said:

To Curt"s credit, he has known from day one about the kind of environment that breeds world champions.

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That line sounds pretty damn corny to me.

I don"t even see the UPS guy anymore tbh. He just knocks and walks away.

splok said:

For some people, a job is a job and working to make a toaster is the same as working to make a game. For that type of person, it doesn"t make sense to go into the game industry. No one"s arguing that point. No one is saying that the game industry is better paying or more stable than other industries. Everyone gets the point. What some people don"t seem to get is that there are also other people who don"t believe a job is just a job, who don"t think working on a toaster is as rewarding as working on a game, and who are aware of and accept the negatives of the game industry. Just because something doesn"t fit your personal priorities doesn"t mean it"s a bad decision for everyone.

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That sounds all well and good if you are an artist working from your home studio and making a modest living creating and enjoying the process. But if you are a code monkey slaving for some company in Southern California"s excesses for poverty line pay, then you seem a lot closer to being a broke ass douche. I just see it as if you are probably no more than a waiter hoping to break into Hollywood and for 99.99% of those waiters there will never be a break.

Seems like for the majority you should be building your skills and resume at jobs where you can see a way to keep moving up in the world. Then you can afford better toys and have time to play games. Since, as mentioned, for most kids with game design dreams, its more that they love playing games than they love or are talented at making one.

I"m not involved in an IT industry at all though, and if game design is really anyone"s passion and dream they should go for it. But it seems like more of a deluded pipe dream than an ambitious pursuit to be admired even if you are just an average nobody. You make it sound like everyone in that position is a nascent game artiste rather than just a confused nerd looking for respect and grandeur in a pretty backwards ass way.

Vatoreus said:

I don"t even see the UPS guy anymore tbh. He just knocks and walks away.

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I still love to see him coming though. Usually with some computer parts, a game preorder, or other hobby shit I might have ordered. Tend to see him driving/turning down my street while walking the dogs. If 38 tanks in a few years, I may well be tempted on those rare occurrences when I bump into a delivery driver face to face to ask if he is Moorgard.

"Hey, I used to read Mobhunter all the time way back in EQ1 days man!"

"Uh(???), this requires a signature, please..."

nevermind...

Honestly, idealistic young guys will do whatever the fuck they want regardless of your advice. "Avoid going into gaming like it"s the goddamn super aids" is advice that the people on the fence will listen to. Build up your resume first, make some bank, get a good job. Then consider working on gaming if you"re bored with your life.

Moorgard Mobhunter said:

I"ve worked at jobs where I didn"t have a personal investment in the product or didn"t feel it provided value to the world in general. I made money, but those jobs left me personally unsatisfied..

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This is a bad analogy any way you slice. I think what you want to say is you have a passion for gaming. Most games do not provide much value. It"s like bad movies. I"m sure Uwe Boll also thinks he is helping the world and has great satisfaction in his work. Forgive me if I disagree. The only difference is an Uwe Boll type would still get work in games companies while Joel and Ethan Coen wouldn"t be allowed in, or would get fired.

I work for a telecommunications company that does amazing things with networks and phones. It"s similar to games in that it gives entertainment, communication, and helps provide people a good service. It is not a cure for cancer, and while I enjoy phones, and have a career it is not validation for my life. Interestingly enough, due to the team I work with this is better and more rewarding than my game time. As with most things, the people one is around determines how good a career is. Well, that and the quality of life, and of course the cash.

It isn"t as good a geek story as working for a game company, but my family is better off.

The last two words there are the simple truth of what most of us are trying to say in this thread. Most people will be better off if they are smart with their career path. The gaming industry is generally a bad career move, unless you are in the right place at the right time, have gotten some good PR, or know someone.

You want to be in games. You seem talented. You also have found consistent work. The problem here is unlike you many people won"t find consistent work.

How many great people do you know who have been hung out to dry in the industry? How many hard working companies have cratered?

I applaud anyone who wants to get into games, it"s just my opinion the industry is controlled by large corporations, and talent does not equate opportunity like it does in so many other places.

Tonic said:

So we have all the arguements / counter-arguments for working as a programmer for game companies that produce MMOS, but what about the few of us who wish to get into the gaming industry for marketing and/or production (assistant in my case) positions.

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I could be way off base so take this with a grain of salt, but I"ll give it a stab. For marketing, I think you pretty much get hired based on your marketing chops and not having industry experience won"t be a huge barrier. Of course, by virtue of so many other people thinking the same thing, I"m sure the competition for the jobs is still pretty insane.

For a production track position, assuming you don"t want to start in testing, not having industry experience can make things pretty difficult. An assistant/associate producer position isn"t unthinkable for an industry noob (depending on the studio), especially if you have relevant experience. It is probably the easiest spot to get into if you have no industry experience and no portfolio. However, it may still be a pretty big stretch. From the little that I"ve seen and been told, it"s typically much easier for someone with a good portfolio but no experience to get an entry level job in their discipline than it would be for the same person to get a production position. Of course, if you"re strictly interested in the business side of things, that doesn"t help much, but there is a chance.

splok said:

I could be way off base so take this with a grain of salt, but I"ll give it a stab. For marketing, I think you pretty much get hired based on your marketing chops and not having industry experience won"t be a huge barrier. Of course, by virtue of so many other people thinking the same thing, I"m sure the competition for the jobs is still pretty insane.

For a production track position, assuming you don"t want to start in testing, not having industry experience can make things pretty difficult. An assistant/associate producer position isn"t unthinkable for an industry noob (depending on the studio), especially if you have relevant experience. It is probably the easiest spot to get into if you have no industry experience and no portfolio. However, it may still be a pretty big stretch. From the little that I"ve seen and been told, it"s typically much easier for someone with a good portfolio but no experience to get an entry level job in their discipline than it would be for the same person to get a production position. Of course, if you"re strictly interested in the business side of things, that doesn"t help much, but there is a chance.

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You"re pretty much hit it right on the head. Everyone"s looking for experienced people, but finding a job that will give that experience with the market as it is right now is a bit of a stretch. The jobs I"ve done in the past are pretty varied (bank teller, bartender / waiter, tournament director @ Hard Knocks Orlando among other major positions there, sound technician for a concert company, fire fighter dispatch) and it doesn"t necessarily look good on paper. Getting past the first wall of resume action (I believe it"s called the "short-list"?) always seems to be the biggest hurdle of any job. I"m batting 1.000 when it comes to being offered a job once I get an interview. It"s just getting that interview that is the biggest issue with just about every job market right now.

With regards to the gaming industry, how would the folks here suggest building a solid foundation to be employeed in the non-technical side of video game production? I wonder if instead of sending a cover letter to a company, a person attempting to stand out over the crowd should record their "cover letter" on YouTube or something along those lines.

Maybe I"ll give that a shot when a position opens up at one of the few companies in MA.

There are people who appreciate creativity, and then there are recruiters who find it annoying bullshit. Depends on the company, the person doing the recruiting, the type of position and quite a bit of luck.

I know our HR people hate that shit. If it isn"t a single page of black and white, they pretty much toss it. Doesn"t matter what position either. But such is the way of corporate America. I"ll never forget the sight of our HR rep grumbling as she emptied out an entire box of "video resumes" when we were hiring a graphic artist for the website.

Something like that I would hand off at a first/second interview. It"s not something I"d send right off the bat unless it was a very small company.

Moorgard Mobhunter said:

Everybody"s happy to see the UPS guy!

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QFT!

Zehn - Vhex said:

There are people who appreciate creativity, and then there are recruiters who find it annoying bullshit. Depends on the company, the person doing the recruiting, the type of position and quite a bit of luck.

I know our HR people hate that shit. If it isn"t a single page of black and white, they pretty much toss it. Doesn"t matter what position either. But such is the way of corporate America. I"ll never forget the sight of our HR rep grumbling as she emptied out an entire box of "video resumes" when we were hiring a graphic artist for the website.

Something like that I would hand off at a first/second interview. It"s not something I"d send right off the bat unless it was a very small company.

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Would it be safe to assume that doing something in this sense would perhaps be a good idea for a non-massive (see: EA) company? I guess the big thing would have to be, read their website, check their company statement and goals, and as best you can get a feel for how you would react to something of this nature if you were in their shoes.

Worst case, they say no.

Always hiring at UPS.

You can make a pretty decent living with UPS as I understand. As long as you aren"t in debt over your head or paying child support on six kids or something.

Funny the overlap in this thread. First a guy posts a story about when he worked for Sigil, now the recurring theme "what can brown do for you?"