Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Cadrid_foh

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
Ahh, Choplifter. Played that at a cousin"s house on the NES way back (I think I was 6 or 7 at the time), and played the hell out of the spiritual successor Desert Strike on the SNES. I"m just a pup compared to some of you old coots, but my parents bought a Colecovision that I played when I was 3 or 4, and aside from Donkey Kong the only game I remember was this isometric view of a space fighter flying through a corridor. Can"t remember the name of it to save my life.

Anyways, Kings Quest V was the best of the KQ series; I had just recently seen Rikki-Tikki-Tavi in school which made me feel like a genius when I turned myself into a mongoose to counter the wizard"s cobra spell.
 

Northerner_foh

shitlord
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I am now concerned that you didn"t play M.U.L.E. !

That"s not actually a bad list you linked there. Well, better than most that I"ve seen at least and since it was a "96 publication it is not entirely marketing crap.
 

Gecko_foh

shitlord
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We need to get back to discussing this more:

wizardry_scenario_1-250525-1245663496.jpe


wizardry_scenario_1-250525-1245663496.jpe
 

James

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Ngruk said:
No it was true high fantasy image wise. Elementals, demons, and heavy on the hard drive space.
It was not cartoony or gimmicky, at least I don"t remember it as such.
I disagree and think this game you"re describing doesn"t exist! Good day, sir!
 

Caliane

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he said it was in 3d, so it was later? 90"s? It wasn"t just Chessmaster was it? Later versions had different UI"s.
 

findar_foh

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
No it was true high fantasy image wise. Elementals, demons, and heavy on the hard drive space.
It was not cartoony or gimmicky, at least I don"t remember it as such.
It didn"t play like chess did it? I think i know what game you are talking about... I remember having something that sounds like what you are talking about but besides starting like chess the game played completely differently. Balrogs and shit beating each other up.

edit: dark legions is what i"m thinking of.
 

Caliane

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findar said:
It didn"t play like chess did it? I think i know what game you are talking about... I remember having something that sounds like what you are talking about but besides starting like chess the game played completely differently. Balrogs and shit beating each other up.
haha. Maybe it was Ogre battle, or some other hex based game.
 

Ngruk_foh

shitlord
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findar said:
It didn"t play like chess did it? I think i know what game you are talking about... I remember having something that sounds like what you are talking about but besides starting like chess the game played completely differently. Balrogs and shit beating each other up.

edit: dark legions is what i"m thinking of.
DING DING DING!!! I am 99.9999% sure that"s it. I need to see the game box...
Hang on!

Yep! This is the one, damn, nice work.

I swear it looked way cooler back then!
 

Caliane

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Never underestimate the power of the rose tinted glasses.
Haha.

There is some things that have been lost in modern gaming, and you can find many examples of some great ideas in the past. But all around, most updates have been soundly upgrades.
Like someone mentioned Ultima:Underworld, and suggested nothing comes close to that today. While, I was pretty vocal about FO3 being overrated, come on. FO3 is better then U:underworld in nearly every way.

as far as I"m concerned one of the only real things I miss, is quick gaming. I got Madworld in gamefly last week. Its a fast paced beat em up. But has a freaking 10 minute tutorial how to play the game when you start. Am I the only that misses being able to put a game in and start playing it 10 seconds later? As we get away from Arcade design, somethings like this are missing. Too many games are pushing the "experiance" and not so much the "fun game".
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
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Caliane said:
Never underestimate the power of the rose tinted glasses.
Haha.

There is some things that have been lost in modern gaming, and you can find many examples of some great ideas in the past. But all around, most updates have been soundly upgrades.
Like someone mentioned Ultima:Underworld, and suggested nothing comes close to that today. While, I was pretty vocal about FO3 being overrated, come on. FO3 is better then U:underworld in nearly every way.

as far as I"m concerned one of the only real things I miss, is quick gaming. I got Madworld in gamefly last week. Its a fast paced beat em up. But has a freaking 10 minute tutorial how to play the game when you start. Am I the only that misses being able to put a game in and start playing it 10 seconds later? As we get away from Arcade design, somethings like this are missing. Too many games are pushing the "experiance" and not so much the "fun game".
Good story telling is good story telling. It"s not something that gets "upgraded" along with game engines. Games like FO3 (which I loved) might be better in graphics, and physics but A LOT of games these days fall short in the story department. All the time/money is spent making it all look pretty with some kind of plot tossed in at the end for good measure. That is why some of my favorite games are still the old classics. Back then all they had to fall on was a good story because it damn sure wasn"t the graphics heh.
 

Ngruk_foh

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I"d argue that where we play, the console, the PC, is the reason it"s missing. Good story tellers are just that, but no one"s figured out how to "tell" that story within the framework of the MMO experience.

I can only use our example, but one of the things we know for certain is that just because RA and Steve have led an incredible design team into creating a MASSIVE story that"s far more interesting than anything I"ve ever played, people aren"t suddenly going to read the quest text in the dialogue box right?

Right.

So what does that leave you? Create an epic awesome story but also, at the same time, figure out new, as well as iterate on the older successful, story telling methods that work in MMO"s and WITH MMO"s.

Cinematics is one small way, very small in the grand scheme of things, but it"s a starting point and it can"t be, at least imo, the FF version where every 8 seconds your game play stops and another cinematic rolls....
 

Pyros_foh

shitlord
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Lost Ranger said:
Good story telling is good story telling. It"s not something that gets "upgraded" along with game engines. Games like FO3 (which I loved) might be better in graphics, and physics but A LOT of games these days fall short in the story department. All the time/money is spent making it all look pretty with some kind of plot tossed in at the end for good measure. That is why some of my favorite games are still the old classics. Back then all they had to fall on was a good story because it damn sure wasn"t the graphics heh.
Graphics are relative, I remember the first time I saw a friend playing Commanche, I was like, wtf this is so insane. Back then simulators were the games pushing technology but they were very impressive since they started the path of 3D, when most other games were still just sprites. Even between sprites, there was worlds of improvements over the years. I"m mostly a console guy originally, so I remember clearly the first time I saw Zelda3 at a friend"s house when I still only had a NES. That shit was straight from the future, it had so many colors, and the pixels were so small, and the pad had 6buttons(most of which weren"t that useful in zelda3 though as far as I remember).

However back then you also had games that were mostly about story(which nowadays don"t exist much more, it has to have pretty graphics to even be considered, which is why many people miss insane games), like the fuckton of sierra adventure games. Well my back then is less old than you old fucks back then though, especially since I didn"t get a computer until I was 12.
 

Caliane

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Ngruk said:
I"d argue that where we play, the console, the PC, is the reason it"s missing. Good story tellers are just that, but no one"s figured out how to "tell" that story within the framework of the MMO experience.

I can only use our example, but one of the things we know for certain is that just because RA and Steve have led an incredible design team into creating a MASSIVE story that"s far more interesting than anything I"ve ever played, people aren"t suddenly going to read the quest text in the dialogue box right?

Right.

So what does that leave you? Create an epic awesome story but also, at the same time, figure out new, as well as iterate on the older successful, story telling methods that work in MMO"s and WITH MMO"s.

Cinematics is one small way, very small in the grand scheme of things, but it"s a starting point and it can"t be, at least imo, the FF version where every 8 seconds your game play stops and another cinematic rolls....
Well with that, you touch on the other question thats been brought up. What is a role playing game? traditionally the point of a role playing game, was the player creates and plays the role of their own character. This is where its difficult to design games around this, as a pnp game has that master working with them guiding them, and adapting. A computer game however, has everything set. You end up with a game thats closer to a choose your own adventure. Wrpg sandboxes are moving towards the intent of rpg origins. while jrpgs are moving in another direction. They tell a specific story, and focus on the role playing in a tighter, more gameplay oriented stat/gear building and less of an all encompassing, play as you feel like sense.

How personal of a story do you want, and think an mmo should be? From a writing point of view, its also mentioned that villains are more important then heroes. And in an mmo telling a compelling story about the world itself should be a high priority.

Remember the importance of visual storytelling as well. Play Super Metroid. 1 line of text in the entire game, yet a story is told extremely well. People don"t read the dialogue on quests like they should, remember this, and be sure the story of whats going on can be read just by looking around.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Ngruk said:
I"d argue that where we play, the console, the PC, is the reason it"s missing. Good story tellers are just that, but no one"s figured out how to "tell" that story within the framework of the MMO experience.

I can only use our example, but one of the things we know for certain is that just because RA and Steve have led an incredible design team into creating a MASSIVE story that"s far more interesting than anything I"ve ever played, people aren"t suddenly going to read the quest text in the dialogue box right?

Right.

So what does that leave you? Create an epic awesome story but also, at the same time, figure out new, as well as iterate on the older successful, story telling methods that work in MMO"s and WITH MMO"s.

Cinematics is one small way, very small in the grand scheme of things, but it"s a starting point and it can"t be, at least imo, the FF version where every 8 seconds your game play stops and another cinematic rolls....
How to tell a story in videogames (not just MMOs) is getting some attention these days:Hereis a very recent article from Gamespot about it.

A quote that grabbed my attention:
The interactivity hurdle


Earlier this year producer of Square Enix"s Star Ocean: The Last Hope Yoshinori Yamagishi told Computer and Video Games Magazine that video games could only advance as a storytelling medium by overcoming the challenges of interactivity.
I feel this hurdle is rather huge for me. Looking back on 16 years of gaming I have come to the unsettling conclusion that I have hardly ever followed the storyline in *any* videogame I have played. Not just MMOs but also single player RPG"s like Baldurs Gate. I do remember the overall storyline of some of them but I have never been truly engrossed in the storyline itself: immersion in the world, yes, but being enthralled by the story as I can be with for instance a R.R Martin novel? No.

There are snippets that stay with me off course. I remember for instance the name Sarevok from BG2? but I could not tell you much more about him. Some sequences of a game can leave a strong impression, like for instance being a convict on a spaceship that crashes into a planet in the original Unreal.

But apart from being immersed in the world itself(imo this can be accomplished separately from being immersed in the storyline) it was always the strategy or gameplay elements or tactical combat itself that really got me hooked onto some of these games. I mean, I definately wanted to see what was around the next corner in BG, I just was not that interested in what the NPCs had to say to me.

This probably has more to do with the way I play games because after all I am mentioning a few games here that are lauded because of their stories. Just wondering if being enthralled in a game"s story ever comes close to how immersed people can be in for instance the Song of Ice and Fire, or Jordans Wheel of Time.
 

Ngruk_foh

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Is it fair to say that people love stories but that some don"t like to read, and some do? They don"t love stories any more or less than the other, but part of that group will put effort into finding a good story (aka people that read) and others will love a story only if they see it or are told?

Therein lies a problem for us gamers. I think, I THINK, I am in the minority because I love to read, anything, that"s a great book/story. I am a quest guy, I am a content guy, but I am also a click the text dialogue box to get through the "stuff" and figure out what I need to do.

I honest to God couldn"t tell you the EQ or EQ2 back story beyond very broad general stuff but Vox was an Ice Dragon, Paladin like? Naggy was a fire Dragon, they were friends? No clue, just know I wanted to kill them.

The ONLY, and I mean ONLY reason I know ANYTHING about the WoW story/lore is because I played WC. What made my experience, I think, even more fun was that I did so AFTER playing WoW for like 2 years. I had no clue what the whole deal with Thrall, or Arthas was, and to this day don"t know a ton. But learning it in WC made me go back into WoW with more intent on the locations and NPCs (never did find Haris Pilton in the WC game...)

How can we do that? How can we make readers and non-readers alike, fantasy fans, "know" our story, lore and Iconics? That"s just one of the hurdles we have that some others do not.

You need to learn it, like it and care about it while never being taken away from the "game" of it all.
 

Tropics_foh

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Treesong said:
I feel this hurdle is rather huge for me. Looking back on 16 years of gaming I have come to the unsettling conclusion that I have hardly ever followed the storyline in *any* videogame I have played. Not just MMOs but also single player RPG"s like Baldurs Gate. I do remember the overall storyline of some of them but I have never been truly engrossed in the storyline itself: immersion in the world, yes, but being enthralled by the story as I can be with for instance a R.R Martin novel? No.
FF7 was close for me, I actually got into the storyline, the flashbacks of Cloud"s former life, the past of Shinra, the death of Aeris, I gotta say alot of that game"s storyline got my interest. That said it was no small feat, it required all those flashbacks to the past, it required the constant cutscenes, it required the forced direction that game too in dropping a quarter of the disc onto the city and removing a vast portion of the game playing world.

If a MMORPG wanted to create a true meaningful storyline they would somehow have to use every trick in the book and even then their job is about 1X10^5 times tougher then it is in a single player game.

That said, storylines in EQ often got my interest. The trick to those? They were not the creation of Sony or Verant or any Dev, they were the creation of the players. I don"t play EVE, never have, but I actually enjoyed reading about the war in that game and the eventual fall of the biggest guild in the game, that story got alot of people"s interest to the tune of a thread that even warps this one.

I think a MMORPG somehow has to strike a balance between their storyline they develop and somehow design their game such that it allows for the creation of player driven events like that. They somehow need to create the conflict, create the group efforts of huge numbers of people to overcome huge goals that change the world of the game somehow. Basically they need to create the dynamic content from the start, create a town from the start that people will know and love and hang out in with the trigger already set into motion to have a giant raiding party of NPC"s and PC"s of the opposing faction suddenly rise up, march to the town, and litterly raze it and kill everyone. It would be like a sudden old school GM quest but one that is programmed in from the start to change the world forever after it takes effect, and it then sets into motion some war that spans the next however long they want it to run.

Basically imagine the day that the Dark Elves followed Bertoxolous and Cazic Thule to war when the two gods released Nagafon and sent him to attack Freeport and then followed in from behind and detroyed the whole city. The city thus becomes a ruined wasteland of undead, the NPC"s you once knew now undead raised by Bert as he went by the carnage.

Granted the idea above is lame in a practical sense because Freeport would suck as a dungeon, it would destroy a key port, Nagafon and the gods have no relation, ect... But the idea of how they could create dynamic content from the start like this from a theoretical sense is very promising. It is like creating Gnomereagan as a litteral starting town for the Gnomes in the start of WOW and 2 years later running an event where we see the actual fall of the place, and the eventual change to a raid dungeon.

That whole long post above summarizes mostly into "you cannot tell a meaningful story in a MMORPG if the world is static, things need to be in place that allow for real meaningful changes".