Tummysticks
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Gun control
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Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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Wonder how long it'd be between the passing of a law allowing concealed carry by staff in schools and the first time someone is killed because a staff member flipped, or was just stupid enough to leave their gun lying around and let some kid grab it?
Like most loosening of gun control laws, I'd imagine it would quickly cause more harm than it prevents.
Like most loosening of gun control laws, I'd imagine it would quickly cause more harm than it prevents.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Relax you syrup snorting moose fucking canadian_stereotype_03, it's incredible to plenty of people inside the US too.
As I am a teacher, I know I am completely biased, but I cannot fathom bringing a gun to school.
The statistical probability of actually having a massacre happen at the school and then being able to prevent it with a gun is far lower than some teacher leaving their gun lying around that winds up in a student's hand.
Schools are supposed to be safe havens, how can that be when the teachers need to be armed?
Tummysticks
Lord Nagafen Raider
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'
Every safe haven that has ever existed in the world is/was cordoned off, guarded and protected by some form of defensive weaponry.
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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This is what the pro-gun crowd don't get, it's about statistics, not individual events. Even if giving every other teacher a concealed firearm does stop a school massacre or two, it's still an overall net loss for society if you lose 2 or 3 kids to accidents or teachers flipping out or whatever for every one you save from klebold wannabes.
I remember when I was in 9th, 10th grade? The most straight laced, orderly, rule-abiding teacher in the entire school lost his shit, started beating on some kid and shoved him up against the wall with his hands around the kids throat. Point is, sometimes people just snap. Do you want them to have a gun on them when it happens? Some won't use it, but it only takes a few.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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This is what the anti-gun crowd don't get, it's about statistics, not individual events. But it doesn't matter that these mass shootings are rare and constitute an insignificant portion of the nation's homicide rate, we clearly need sweeping reform to gun control because of these rare, isolated events.
Except schools. A few gun-toting teachers will not stop these lunatics. These massacres and terrorists have one huge thing in common: You cannot defend against them. And it is asinine to even attempt to try to defend against all possible scenarios. It is like trying to stop a stream by throwing sand into it.
\
Statistics are not a Republicans friend as this election showed quite efficiently. Not that I am saying all gun-advocates are Republicans, but I would hazard a guess that the majority are.
We are talking about guns in school you fucking loon.
I don't give a shit about hicks shooting their guns in the woods.
edit- Double apologies.
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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It's not about isolated massacres, it's about your firearm murder rate being an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the civilized world.
We had a massacre in Australia in the 90's, was a pretty fucking huge thing at the time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...nment_Reaction
So what did they do? They passed a bunch of laws restricting the fuck out of gun access. Did it work? Hard to say, we have a much smaller population than the US, and a different culture when it comes to guns and violence and the media. But we sure as shit haven't had anything like it happen since, and I never even considered the possibility that going to school or later, uni, might result in having my head blown off by some pissed off psycho wanting to top the high score.
In fact every gun murder I can remember since was initiated by organized crime, with the victims being other criminals. Which is pretty much a win/win by my vote, bikie scum killing eachother off gives me a warm glow inside.
I posted this in the Con. shooting thread, but I might as well re-post it here as it deals with gun control.
Runner-up at Sandy Hook.
The old refrain.
?No one remembers second place?
This is simply not true,
When your runner-up, number two,
In total innocent killed right out of the blue.
No wreath of flowers bright,
No silver medal,
No ceremony lights,
But your name will become devil
In less than a night.
Control; whose control?
Realities, broken dreams
Torn straight down their infantile seams
It?s Friday getting the pay roll,
But instead, it?s twenty plus young dead.
It?s a massacre, plastered
All over the media alabaster.
It?s a genuine disaster
Panic, knee-jerk reaction
Nothing, but a mere distraction
What?s the truth? Real.
Blame guns, blame crazies; is the new deal.
AR assault rifle; clips and mag,
Protection, no it?s a deflection.
This veneer will not stop the undersized toe tags, in their massive body bags.
All our discourse is filled with hate,
Media frenzy drives this pointless debate.
When will we stop; when will we listen.
Vitriol spewing; passionate diatribes, irate
No good will come until this dissension abates.
We must look past and see the young,
Who are the victims to our hideous affair with guns,
This tragedy, a bauble for our morbid fascination
With killers and murderers, and their dark machinations
We glorify these infamous, gore-park attractions.
This incessant stream of ?news-worthy,? news;
What is this drivel?
Fox, CNN, NBC, BBC; Let us see;
Turn off the tube; only then will these lunatics lose
The motivation that makes them do,
What they only have the stomach to do.
Runner-up at Sandy Hook.
The old refrain.
?No one remembers second place?
This is simply not true,
When your runner-up, number two,
In total innocent killed right out of the blue.
No wreath of flowers bright,
No silver medal,
No ceremony lights,
But your name will become devil
In less than a night.
Control; whose control?
Realities, broken dreams
Torn straight down their infantile seams
It?s Friday getting the pay roll,
But instead, it?s twenty plus young dead.
It?s a massacre, plastered
All over the media alabaster.
It?s a genuine disaster
Panic, knee-jerk reaction
Nothing, but a mere distraction
What?s the truth? Real.
Blame guns, blame crazies; is the new deal.
AR assault rifle; clips and mag,
Protection, no it?s a deflection.
This veneer will not stop the undersized toe tags, in their massive body bags.
All our discourse is filled with hate,
Media frenzy drives this pointless debate.
When will we stop; when will we listen.
Vitriol spewing; passionate diatribes, irate
No good will come until this dissension abates.
We must look past and see the young,
Who are the victims to our hideous affair with guns,
This tragedy, a bauble for our morbid fascination
With killers and murderers, and their dark machinations
We glorify these infamous, gore-park attractions.
This incessant stream of ?news-worthy,? news;
What is this drivel?
Fox, CNN, NBC, BBC; Let us see;
Turn off the tube; only then will these lunatics lose
The motivation that makes them do,
What they only have the stomach to do.
The UK had our school maccare in 1996. We tightened gun laws and have not had a repeat since.
But again, there are some very big difference between the UK and the US.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Except that basically all gun murders in the US are committed with handguns, which nobody seems to give a shit about controlling. Meanwhile everyone is obsessing about 'assault weapons', which are a complete non issue except they apparently make a good scapegoat in the media.
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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I give a shit about controlling handguns. I think anything other thanmaybea rifle which can only hold 2 - 3 shots before needing a reload, when there's a legitimateneed, has no place in civilian hands, ideally. I know that's not a realistic goal for a country like the US with such a fucked up relationship with violence/guns/the media, but that'd be the end goal in Azraynia.
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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Australia/UK are islands, bit harder to control guns in the US for that fact.
If they were to arm teachers, what should be done instead is arm the principal and have the school system work in conjunction with the local/state police forces to train them properly in firearm use. Then you would have the weapon locked in a room/locker in the office only accessible to the principal. These people aren't incompetents for the most part, they have degrees, they have passed background checks, and generally worked for the school system for years to reach their positions, I think we underestimate them. Arming every teacher is a stupid idea that wouldn't work and would lead to accidents, but arming principals and properly training them, I think could be a viable option if these types of events become even more common.
Personally, though, I'd rather just put two trained cops in every school in the nation. The cost would be worth it, we always had a couple armed security guards at my high school, I don't really see the issue with doing that. Federal government could provide the majority of the funding through the education department.
If they were to arm teachers, what should be done instead is arm the principal and have the school system work in conjunction with the local/state police forces to train them properly in firearm use. Then you would have the weapon locked in a room/locker in the office only accessible to the principal. These people aren't incompetents for the most part, they have degrees, they have passed background checks, and generally worked for the school system for years to reach their positions, I think we underestimate them. Arming every teacher is a stupid idea that wouldn't work and would lead to accidents, but arming principals and properly training them, I think could be a viable option if these types of events become even more common.
Personally, though, I'd rather just put two trained cops in every school in the nation. The cost would be worth it, we always had a couple armed security guards at my high school, I don't really see the issue with doing that. Federal government could provide the majority of the funding through the education department.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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Our drug laws are also far, far stricter, creating a higher profitability. Combined with a far worse safety net, which allows for rampant poverty and creates a situation where the only way out of poverty is to access the highly illegal, but highly profitable realm of drug trafficking. Because there is so much money involved and the desperation for that money, it obviously creates conflicts--which happen in EVERY business, in every part of the world. But in this business, there are no socially acceptable conflict resolution institutions (Like Courts/Police), and given the immensely profitable nature of the market, it creates a situation where every seller is looking for legitimacy to run the market. Now, like any government, in order to have legitimacy an organization needs a monopoly of violence--they need to be the only ones that can kill people, and control the market. This actually leads to a hyper-violent situation where the different groups will kill each other JUST because they exist, even if their business interests aren't currently colliding.
This is the situation in many South American countries and the situation in many U.S. cities. If people honestly cared about lowering the violent crime rate AT ALL, the biggest step would be legalizing drugs--but if you don't want to be that extreme, adopting a treatment vs enforcement strategy would greatly reduce the profits, while a better social safety net would reduce the need to be involved.
But people don't care about actually reducing gun violence. They care about symbolic efforts to reduce children from being killed in wealthy neighborhoods--even though if they could COMPLETELY eliminate these kinds of events, it would have almost no effect on the totals of gun violence in the country. So yeah. I don't think these efforts are about gun violence at all, there are far bigger and actually LESS difficult steps we could take before gun control. Gun control is symbolic and it probably won't even target the main forms of the weapons that do the damage.
You do not control guns by stopping them entering the country. You control guns by imposing such harsh penalties for being caught with a gun that even stupid people wont risk it.
The UK system is not perfect. We did have a madman kill a dozen people in 2010. He used legally licensed weapons (rifle that held one round and a shotgun that held two rounds). This was one of two cases I can think of where we suffered from having unarmed police. If the first police on the scene had been armed then less people may have been killed. However, having unarmed police (which I know is impossible in the US) is part of our gun control. If you are caught acting illegally with guns (as in, reported to have an automatic) then armed police will be dispatched and they do not take any chances, so the criminal usually ends up dead. Add that to ridiculously long jail sentences for gun crime, and even criminals do not want to possess guns. There have been a couple of cases where this policy has gone wrong aswell though, such as a man who was shot dead because he was thought to have a bomb, but turned out to be unarmed.
Our system is not perfect, but people are deterred from owning guns.
The UK system is not perfect. We did have a madman kill a dozen people in 2010. He used legally licensed weapons (rifle that held one round and a shotgun that held two rounds). This was one of two cases I can think of where we suffered from having unarmed police. If the first police on the scene had been armed then less people may have been killed. However, having unarmed police (which I know is impossible in the US) is part of our gun control. If you are caught acting illegally with guns (as in, reported to have an automatic) then armed police will be dispatched and they do not take any chances, so the criminal usually ends up dead. Add that to ridiculously long jail sentences for gun crime, and even criminals do not want to possess guns. There have been a couple of cases where this policy has gone wrong aswell though, such as a man who was shot dead because he was thought to have a bomb, but turned out to be unarmed.
Our system is not perfect, but people are deterred from owning guns.
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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I don't disagree with your general sentiment, but as a matter a fact the drug trade in Australia is actually, I'd be almost certain, more profitable, per capita. We have among the highest rates of useage in the world for many drugs, and the combination of the highly concentrated population and being an island state allows for a much more monopolized trade. There's very little competition and massive markups once the product reaches Australia, combined with a strong AUD. The street prices for most drugs here would blow the mind of someone from the US, where you live next door to production countries and your large, spread out population and wide borders allow for far more competition.
Anyway, that's just a drug geek aside, but yeah overall our black market/underworld and poverty issues (courtesy of a fairly thorough welfare program) cause far less violence. The media went crazy over a 'gangland war' in Melbourne back in the late 90's/early 00's, which resulted in maybe 25 deaths over nearly a decade (although part of that was the personalities involved, and just the media doing what it does). It just doesn't compare to multiple kids getting shot up on the street corner every day in places like Detroit or Baltimore or w/e. But the question you have to ask is how much worse would it be here if every asshole wannabe dealer had a handgun?
Given the level of knife crime you guys have over there in the UK (or has it abated in recent years?), I do sometimes wonder where you'd be at with lax, American style gun laws. Much worse off, I'm sure.
Just an interesting example that popped up.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226540036247
THE man shot dead in Punchbowl last night has been identified as 28-year-old Bachir Arja.
Campsie Police Superintendent Michael McClean said during a press conference this morning he was previously known to police.
"At this stage it is inappropriate for me to comment on his history or prior convictions but I will say he is known to police," he said.
Police said the 28-year-old victim lived with his mother in her Punchbowl home and had recently become engaged to his girlfriend just three weeks ago.
Worried neighbours said they heard a few bangs from inside their homes last night and came out to investigate.
"I thought it was fireworks," one man, who identified himself as Harry, said.
"When I walked outside to see what was happening an heard a woman screaming I realised it was something a bit more serious."
Supt McClean said the shooting appeared to be a targeted attack and advised innocent members of the public not to panic.
The victim was shot in the head on Owen St, Punchbowl about 11.10pm last night.
Emergency services performed CPR, but he was pronounced dead at the scene.
A crime scene was setup covering a portion of the street.
Forensic officers dusted a Toyota Camry parked near the home for finger prints as well as some hand rails on the front yard.
Police were forced to extend the crime scene when family and friends started to gather on the roadway.
More than 40 people were moved back after the crime scene was extended to the Victoria Rd cross street.
Some residents whose homes were inside the crime scene had to wait outside for a police escort if they wanted to return to their houses.
This incident follows two drive-by shootings in Milperra and Cherrybrook this week.
It is not known if last night's incident is linked, however concern for gun related violence reached fever pitch overnight with police responding to at least six other reports of gun shots across Sydney.
Officers went to streets in Guildford, Doonside, West Pennant Hills, Padstow and Pymble following reports of shots heard by locals.
But no evidence of gun crime was found once arriving at each of the scenes, according to a police spokeswoman.
About 10.50pm yesterday, officers were called to Shadforth Street, Mosman, following reports a gun shot had been heard.
Police have been told an argument occurred between a group of people in a unit block, which moved out onto the street.
A single gun shot was then heard before the group fled the area.
Officers attended and established a crime scene.
No one was found injured at the address.
Investigations into the Punchbowl resident's death will continue today.
THE man shot dead in Punchbowl last night has been identified as 28-year-old Bachir Arja.
Campsie Police Superintendent Michael McClean said during a press conference this morning he was previously known to police.
"At this stage it is inappropriate for me to comment on his history or prior convictions but I will say he is known to police," he said.
Police said the 28-year-old victim lived with his mother in her Punchbowl home and had recently become engaged to his girlfriend just three weeks ago.
Worried neighbours said they heard a few bangs from inside their homes last night and came out to investigate.
"I thought it was fireworks," one man, who identified himself as Harry, said.
"When I walked outside to see what was happening an heard a woman screaming I realised it was something a bit more serious."
Supt McClean said the shooting appeared to be a targeted attack and advised innocent members of the public not to panic.
The victim was shot in the head on Owen St, Punchbowl about 11.10pm last night.
Emergency services performed CPR, but he was pronounced dead at the scene.
A crime scene was setup covering a portion of the street.
Forensic officers dusted a Toyota Camry parked near the home for finger prints as well as some hand rails on the front yard.
Police were forced to extend the crime scene when family and friends started to gather on the roadway.
More than 40 people were moved back after the crime scene was extended to the Victoria Rd cross street.
Some residents whose homes were inside the crime scene had to wait outside for a police escort if they wanted to return to their houses.
This incident follows two drive-by shootings in Milperra and Cherrybrook this week.
It is not known if last night's incident is linked, however concern for gun related violence reached fever pitch overnight with police responding to at least six other reports of gun shots across Sydney.
Officers went to streets in Guildford, Doonside, West Pennant Hills, Padstow and Pymble following reports of shots heard by locals.
But no evidence of gun crime was found once arriving at each of the scenes, according to a police spokeswoman.
About 10.50pm yesterday, officers were called to Shadforth Street, Mosman, following reports a gun shot had been heard.
Police have been told an argument occurred between a group of people in a unit block, which moved out onto the street.
A single gun shot was then heard before the group fled the area.
Officers attended and established a crime scene.
No one was found injured at the address.
Investigations into the Punchbowl resident's death will continue today.
Assassination style killing of a organized crime member. These are literally the only gun killings I can remember happening since the 90's, although I'm sure we've had isolated incidents.
hodj
Vox Populi Jihadi
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The only problem I have with this is that, I mean, these people are literally slaughtering 6 year olds in school now, and killing themselves during the ensuing attack, so they obviously don't fear stringent laws, like the death penalty, which we have in the US. I believe that the UK does not have the death penalty. So one would argue that we already have more stringent laws than the UK in relation to crimes of this nature, therefore, maybe more stringent laws may not have as much impact here as they did in England/Australia.
There are already something like 190 million guns in the US, it would take decades just to get them all off the streets after putting stringent laws in place restricting ownership, and all gun laws in the US are grandfathered in. The government can't go door to door confiscating firearms because the manpower to do so doesn't exist, and if they did try it, it would definitely end in a whole lot of otherwise law abiding citizens being shot, harmed, what have you in the process, some from resisting having their firearms taken.
The problem in the US is the cat is out of the bag. Even if they ban something like the AR 15 style rifle, you'll still be able to buy them either at the gun shows, or if those are banned, on the black market here for decades. There won't be enough prisons to hold all the people who would be convicted of owning illegal firearms. It'd be prohibition all over again, times ten. And the cartels/gangs/criminals in the cities who already profit from illegal drugs? Well their power will just increase as they now get to trade in all sorts of illegal firearms. These AR 15s will still be available, albeit at much higher costs, but a truly dedicated sociopath won't let a little thing like money stop them.
Not saying that's an argument for not banning future production/distribution of the weapons in the US, but just that there will be far ranging impacts to such an act that may not be totally foreseeable ahead of time.