Hearthstone

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,408
72,763
Great, now that try to apply that logic toConcentrateandAncestral Recall. Funny how it leads to the opposite conclusion now. Or if you dont want to get into the obviously overpowered cards from the first set look at Wrath of God compared to the generally weaker variants, Lightning bolt vs Shock, etc. Power level in established CCGs has highs and lows that both work in their respective environments (Mercadian Masques or Kamigawa, anyone?). The question is do the Hearthstone folks have a good enough understanding of CCGs balance or do they approach this like an MMO?
Ancestral Recall and Concentrate are creatures now? And their existence leads to the opposite conclusion that creatures have in fact gotten worse over time?

The Ancient said they just won't release a card that is strictly better than Chillwind Yeti because that is not how expansions in card games work. He is wrong. Card expansions frequently add cards that are strictly better than existing cards. It has happened in more games than just Magic.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,897
34,860
That's what, like 10-15 cards out of 60 from the first 5-6 years of Magic? Yea that's hardly what I would call "mostly first few sets of Magic".
The whole 'lol new cards' is such BS. Yes creatures have generally gotten way more powerful but really? Power 9 is in basically every competitive vintage deck. Remove a few key cards (P9, FoW, Strip Mine, Library, original duals) and you completely gut Vintage.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,634
51,036
The whole 'lol new cards' is such BS. Yes creatures have generally gotten way more powerful but really? Power 9 is in basically every competitive vintage deck. Remove a few key cards (P9, FoW, Strip Mine, Library, original duals) and you completely gut Vintage.
And get Legacy, which is still an incredibly high powered format, just not quite as ridiculous as Vintage.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
The Ancient said they just won't release a card that is strictly better than Chillwind Yeti because that is not how expansions in card games work. He is wrong. Card expansions frequently add cards that are strictly better than existing cards. It has happened in more games than just Magic.
I think you missed the reason I said Chillwind Yeti. Of course they release cards that are better than previous, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise. My point is that they usually don't just go +gooderer. It's possible we'll see another 4/5 for 4 mana with an effect that makes it mostly better than Chillwind. It's extremely unlikely that we'll see another 4 mana that simply has better stats. I never said expansions don't add strong cards, in fact I specifically said they increase the pool of strong cards. Usually they do this through new effects or better versions of the weak cards, not better versions of the strong ones. The fact that the "vintage deck" that was discussed earlier hasanycards from early expansions just illustrates that point.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,897
34,860
Ancestral Recall and Concentrate are creatures now? And their existence leads to the opposite conclusion that creatures have in fact gotten worse over time?

The Ancient said they just won't release a card that is strictly better than Chillwind Yeti because that is not how expansions in card games work. He is wrong. Card expansions frequently add cards that are strictly better than existing cards. It has happened in more games than just Magic.
No, he gave an example of an ubiquitous card being replaced by a strictly better version. You trying to conflate that into 'just creatures' is silly. UtH going to get a better version now that they learned their lesson? Anyway, whole point is invalidated and Column is wrong anyway because unlike regular card games, Blizz has no compunctions about simply editing cards or abilities if they fuck up. Even MtGO, Wizards won't simply edit wording on a card besides official errata to work with the new rules. Otherwise Mox Sapphire would cost 2 colorless and it would be fine. Granted it might take a year knowing Blizz, but still.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,408
72,763
You said that decks in Vintage were built with a majority of cards from the first few years of the game. That is not the case. It's more like 1/6th to 1/3rd. Most of those cards are mana sources. The flavor/strategy comes from newer cards.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,897
34,860
You said that decks in Vintage were built with a majority of cards from the first few years of the game. That is not the case. It's more like 1/6th to 1/3rd. Most of those cards are mana sources. The flavor/strategy comes from newer cards.
No, I said the format was BASED on them. Not constructed with majority numbers. And it is... There wouldn't be an entirely separate format WITHOUT those key restricted cards if they weren't so pivotal. Or for that matter, they wouldn't be restricted/banned in the first place.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,408
72,763
No, he gave an example of an ubiquitous card being replaced by a strictly better version. You trying to conflate that into 'just creatures' is silly. UtH going to get a better version now that they learned their lesson? Anyway, whole point is invalidated and Column is wrong anyway because unlike regular card games, Blizz has no compunctions about simply editing cards or abilities if they fuck up. Even MtGO, Wizards won't simply edit wording on a card besides official errata to work with the new rules.
No, he did not. Ancestral Recall was not replaced. When your format is "all cards ever printed" Ancestral Recall and Concentrate are competing for deck slots. When you print a card that is worse than current options no one will use it. When you print a card that is better than current options everyone will use it.

That's how this works. Over time as the card pool gets larger and larger the game is more and more defined by the few best cards.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,897
34,860
No, he did not. Ancestral Recall was not replaced. When your format is "all cards ever printed" Ancestral Recall and Concentrate are competing for deck slots. When you print a card that is worse than current options no one will use it. When you print a card that is better than current options everyone will use it.

That's how this works. Over time as the card pool gets larger and larger the game is more and more defined by the few best cards.
Are you trying to be obtuse and argue semantics because you don't have a valid point? I said 'replaced' as in 'will be used exclusively in place and/or because it is strictly better it will replace the other card in every deck', just like Ancesrtal Recall and Concentrate. Who gives a shit that both are 'competing', because it isn't a competition when one is inferior in every way.

AND AGAIN, the entire point is moot anyway because Blizzard will just alter whatever cards offend balance, whenever. Cyclically. Forever. Sloooowwwly. If Battlecry Mirror Yeti becomes big in 5 years, they can just as easily go 'fuck you Chillwind' and increase it's cost by 2 just to make the game more balanced instead of doing anything with new cards.
 

Fuse

Silver Knight of the Realm
500
29
With Magic, the 'Power 9' are all from Alpha and Beta. There are no cards more powerful than Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Time Walk etc. There will never be another 2 mana counterspell with no drawback. Or dual lands. Or Force of Will. Or Fact or Fiction. Or Inspiration. Or Brainstorm. Or Sol Ring. And on and on. There will never be a better 1 mana removal than Swords to Plowshares. There will never be another planeswalker as powerful as Jace TMS. But at the same time Sierra Angel, a 4/4 Flying Vigilance for 5 was considered quite good in her day, but later that card was completely eclipsed by Baneslayer Angel (5 mana 5/5 flying, first strike, lifelink, protection from demons and dragons). That is a significantly more powerful card.

Power levels peak at different times so I don't think you can say there is a direct correlation to the power of cards and how recently they are released. However, over time as the card pool grows there are more beneficial card interactions which can raise the overall power level so if the card pool isn't segregated at some point the overall power level will increase because you can cherry pick the 'best one drop' for a given situation from a larger pool of cards.

And as long as that happens the Warlock ability will get more and more powerful. It's already the best hero ability by a mile and I don't think anyone who doesn't see that understands how resource limited games like this work.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,408
72,763
Are you trying to be obtuse and argue semantics because you don't have a valid point? I said 'replaced' as in 'will be used exclusively in place and/or because it is strictly better it will replace the other card in every deck', just like Ancesrtal Recall and Concentrate. Who gives a shit that both are 'competing', because it isn't a competition when one is inferior in every way.
No, he gave an example of an ubiquitous card being replaced by a strictly better version.
It's not semantics. You said that Mr Creed gave an example of an ubiquitous card being replaced by a strictly better version. He did not. Ancestral Recall was first. Ancestral Recall is the ubiquitous card draw spell of Magic the Gathering. It has not been replaced by a strictly better version.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,897
34,860
OK so let's break it down:

1) I was dispelling (ARBITRARY: I'M USING LITERARY LICENSE HERE, I DON'T ACTUALLY MEAN REMOVING A SPELL OR HEX OK BRO?) the idea that cards simply get more powerful as new stuff is released. Many of the oldest cards in MtG are some of the most powerful.
2) At no point does the idea of broken cards even matter because they are not being printed in ink. Blizzard may edit them at any time, and indeed they do now.

Warlock having the most theoretically powerful ability may not even fully matter ever as Blizzard keeps editing shit to keep the power creep in check while making new interactions. Of course it won't be instant or ever finished, but I think everyone can agree that there have been truly degenerate cards in Hearthstone that warranted changes (UtH, et all) but the Warlock ability persists because it is merely powerful in the current state of the game, not broken. Potential energy vs. kinetic energy.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,897
34,860
It's not semantics. You said that Mr Creed gave an example of an ubiquitous card being replaced by a strictly better version. He did not. Ancestral Recall was first. Ancestral Recall is the ubiquitous card draw spell of Magic the Gathering. It has not been replaced by a strictly better version.
The fuck are you smoking? That was exactly my point. That cards which follow are NOT always strictly better.

Thanks for reading. Or not, more accurately.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,108
2,302
When the power gets too strong they'll just nerf it anyway. You can even nerf it without touching the cost, for example Pay 2+2life: Draw a card, this card cannot be played until next turn or Pay 2+2life: Draw a card. 25% chanced you discard a card or even 2+2life: Draw a card, 50% chance you draw another card that is discarded instantly(self mill). Since Blizzard like their RNG I feel it's fitting to add RNG based shit on the hero power to balance it out, but the one where you can't play the card until next turn for example would hurt zoo but wouldn't hurt handlock as much(you still get a card in your hand to play drakes/stone giants). For now while it's the strongest, it's not really in need of nerfing I'd say.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,408
72,763
The fuck are you smoking? That was exactly my point. That cards which follow are NOT always strictly better.
Wait, do you think I literally mean all new cards are more powerful than all older cards? Do you think that was my position? Well shit, here's a blue spell that says draw cards on it that isn't better than Ancestral! ARGUMENT DEFEATED.

I've never seen someone take the time to build a straw effigy of me, knock it down, and then try to sodomize it (doesn't the strawhurt?) but here we are.

It's fucking Magic the Fucking Gathering. They randomly make whole expansions that are shitty. They fill sets with garbage intended for play in limited and limited only. But over time the card power in eternal formats goes up and new cards that are strictly better than older cards do get printed. Hearthstone is not immune to that.
 

Sinzar

Trakanon Raider
3,149
269
Well they certainly ramped up the challenge for heroic this wing... 20 damage to the face on turn 4 from a weapon attack, then he just replays the weapon again. Thanks razuvious!
 

Column_sl

shitlord
9,833
7
That is a bullshit fucking fight, I kept fatiguing on Heroic till I re arranged my deck. Play paladin with a good bit of taunts and weapon removal, along with the secret that acts like a blocker. Hes has 3 weapons on Heroic.

You still have to draw really fucking well, but the key is just keeping up the taunts, and hope you don't fatigue.

Might be easier on a shaman with taunts, I don't know

rrr_img_72921.jpg
 

Sinzar

Trakanon Raider
3,149
269
Beat Razuvious after like 20+ mulligans into the perfect hand. Did not enjoy.

Turn 1, steal the students, he hero powers one.
Turn 2, Divine spirit the full health one, he coins his weapon and finishes the weakened student.
Turn 3, Divine spirit the student again, then inner fire him (28/28), attack. Razuvious uses hero power and passes.
Turn 4, fuck this fight, glad it's over, hit for 28 again. Win
 

slippery

<Bronze Donator>
7,899
7,714
Decided to clean out my quest log since 3 5 win quests. 1 for Warlock, 2 for Warrior. Play Zoo first, only hit other zoo and hunter. Play Warrior, hit every fucking slow ass control deck in the game and not zoo once.
 

Sinzar

Trakanon Raider
3,149
269
Finished the full wing on heroic. I must say, the first two wings were a lot of fun, but this wing I thought was overall kind of terrible. I get that they want each fight to have some kind of gimmick, but man, this one left a bad taste. At least Gothik was almost sort of like a real match, and didn't rely on spam restarting the fights for perfect hands.

Gothik:
Druid deck with lots of healing, removal, and buffs to "activate" the spectres so I could kill them off. Poison seeds was the all-star when the spectres started to build up on my side. Don't bother trying to race him, just board control and let him mill himself. Early game cold light oracles will burn his cards while refilling yours. Naturalize for the 5/6 knights.

Horsemen:
Fuck this fight too. Beat it with a hunter since you can't keep minions on the field. I kept restarting the fight until my opening hand had a 1 mana instant damage (elven archer, arcane shot, stonetusk) and hunter's mark to kill a horseman instantly. Turn 2 was flare, another hunters mark, and another 1 mana instant damage. Turn 3 was deadly shot. Rivendare only drew the one weapon on the winning game, and it took me a ton of restarts to get that dream opener.