Hearthstone

Zulst_sl

shitlord
264
0
In my opinion, the reason why the Warsong Commander is strong is because of Giants and Worgens. The reason why Iceblock is strong is because of Pyroblast. The Alexstrasza/Charge combo is fine because it's way too inconsistent. They can do like they did with the Shattered Sun Cleric and reduce the Worgen's hp from 3 to 2 and they can add some kind of minimum mana cost to the Giants but personally I feel like any of the cards mentioned previously are fine. They feel cheap to lose to but, at least with the Warrior Deck, the games are far too inconsistent and require too many combo cards in hand for Blizzard to really worry if they're overpowered or not.

Pyro might still be an issue with Mage aggro because getting a guy from 30 to 20 hp is really easy to do. They could do like Mind Control and raise its cost to 10 or 9 so you have that extra turn to try and burn them down before the Pyro comes flying at your face. But until they release the numbers on recent winrates we really won't know for sure. From what I've seen recently Rogues/Warlocks are more of a problem than Mages and Warriors.

Defender of Argus is really the only card I think is way over the top these days.
 

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider
3,053
133
Based on Blizzard's stance towards Hunter OTK Unleash The Hounds decks, I think it's safe to assume that Blizzard will nerf the Warrior OTK deck and I see two ways of going about it.

1. They nerf Molten Giants (a minimum cost most likely). Pros: It addresses giant issues because if they don't address the giants but nerf Warrior OTK in another way, someone else will figure out a way to abuse giants (remember that Warrior Giants OTK was discovered indirectly as a result of nerfing Mages freeze mechanics and making frozen giants really hard to be playable). Cons: Nerfing giants does nothing to address the other forms of Warrior OTK.

2. Charge Mechanics get addressed. The way to do that is to directly nerf Warsong Commander and the Charge card (both would need to be reworked in some fashion). Fixing Warsong Commander to only give the first minion played a turn would be a step in the right direction but still leaves the Gorehowl + Alex combo viable. Pros: Currently all Warrior OTK decks rely on Charge in some form so this would remove Warrior OTK completely. Cons: as mentioned above it still leaves giants able to be abused once someone else figures out how they work.

One proposed change I saw was to address the combo through the Brewmasters to make it so that a card returned to the player's hand would not be able to attack the same turn being replayed. This addresses the Giants and various Worgen/Enrage decks but still leaves the Gorehowl + Alex OTK viable. So I don't think that the Brewmaster is the way to go about it.

My personal opinion is that the Giants are overpowered, gimmicky and not well thought out. It seems obvious, to me at any rate, that the designers thought they would be a cool gimmick to make them cheaper as certain conditions were met.
 

Raign

Golden Squire
627
86
Defender of Argus is really the only card I think is way over the top these days.
Agreed, defender is just too cheap for a 3/3 that adds +1/+1 and taunt to either side. Nerf that and make some adjustments to how the Arena draft runs (seriously screw off with being able to draft 7 of the same spell when the normal deck cap is 1 or 2 on them). It makes some arena decks too strong and ends up screwing over others (I had 6 blood imps show up as a card selection last night... I love me some blood imps but that is a little out of hand)
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,072
2,267
Warsong Commander is strong because it's Warsong Commander. The combination that leads to OTK is annoying but it's not really because of the other cards and entirely because of warsong commander. It gives charge to everything else as long as it's in play, it's actually one of the few cards that act very similar to MTG cards and specifically enchantments, where you drop it and it affects everything else all the time, plus the effect is insanely strong. Already pointed out though that simply having some "summoning sickness" or "tired" status or whatever where a charger can only charge once per turn even if you bounce it back would probably be fine. You would still have a very strong potential burst with worgens and inner rage or just 2 giants but you wouldn't get 30+dmg OTK turns. Other than that a straight up nerf to the warsong.

That said, it's not very consistent nor that strong from what I've seen, so it's not really like that much of an issue, imo. In Blizzard eyes though, I assume it will be nerfed. OTK Hunter was just as situational and also fairly inconsistent and yet it was nerfed. Also expect random nerfs to other good warrior cards just because, similar to buzzard. Inb4 fiery war axe now a 2/3 ^^.

I wonder what their plans for expansion/new cards are. They haven't talked about much as far as I've followed, for a game that has that much success and is still in "beta", it's a bit surprising how little advertising and interviews they seem to be doing.
 

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider
3,053
133
Yeah, the lack of communication out of Blizzard, while not surprising, is really annoying. But this is Beta after all and we should be getting some feedback more often in my opinion.
 

Amzin

Lord Nagafen Raider
2,917
361
Hunter OTK was just before I started paying attention, but I think one of the major differences I've heard is you can play around warrior OTK to some extent, whereas with Hunter it didn't matter what you did? That seems like a huge difference to me.
 

Raign

Golden Squire
627
86
Well that seems to be the Blizzard model really. They don't need to spend money on advertising .. word of mouth does it for them. In fact, I would argue that the only games they DO advertise for are the ones that are duds and they know word of mouth is not going to cut it for (e.g. Diablo 3...).

The summoning sickness idea is a good one... you can argue it does not deal with Alex+gorehowl+1 giant, but it does deal with most of the commander OTK combos while keeping them strong enough to still be an interesting mechanic.

I don't really agree with the sentiment that giants are too strong though -- there is more than enough removal in this game, most people simply aren't using it because they want to pack in one more murloc rather than a 'situational' card like naturalize. There may, however, be a case to be made for another neutral removal card (besides BGH) to help level out a couple of classes removal options, just make it less efficient than the class specific ones so the classes optimized for it still excel at it still do.
 

Sithro

Molten Core Raider
1,493
196
So, any good decks that don't use a bunch of rare cards? I have a few epics now (like 4 I think), but I have mostly unlocked cards and a lot of commons. What would be the best course of action?
 

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
Meh, they are similar enough, you can sort of play around the molten giants variation by trying to leave him around 16 hp til you can kill him in one turn, but the warrior can also damage them self by swinging at minions. You can't play around alexstrasza/gorehowl except for holding onto an ooze or having a taunt minion in hand the turn after he plays gorehowl. The problem with these decks and ice block is the state of the board isn't really important to the people using them and that is a big problem in hearthstone.
 

Raign

Golden Squire
627
86
There are actually a lot of them Sithro. Honestly, if you google them or go through theHearthpwnforums you can get a lot of good suggestions. Just because you don't have every card in a prescribed deck discourage you. In a lot of cases it is easy to just sub out and have an effective variation. I would say that warlock / mage rush decks and rogue spell-power decks are among the easiest to build for cheap, but just play with what you have and tweak as you learn.
 

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider
3,053
133
Hunter OTK was just before I started paying attention, but I think one of the major differences I've heard is you can play around warrior OTK to some extent, whereas with Hunter it didn't matter what you did? That seems like a huge difference to me.
It was possible to play around Hunter OTK as well but difficult. It basically boiled down to throwing down a bunch of taunters on Turn 6 (Turn 7 was the turn that Hunter OTK became possible). But this was during a time that taunters were frowned upon and the deck absolutely demolished newer players at lower ranks. This is where Blizzard started their reasoning of nerfing "unfun."

Warrior OTK is also possible to play around but it's not as easy as it sounds. Depending on your class there's a few ways to go about it but a Warrior is also going to be, actively, trying to counter your counter.

Let's look at the easiest, most consistent, Warrior OTK deck. The combo relies on the following:
1x Warsong Commander
2x Molten Giants
2x Young Brewmaster

As you can see that's 5 cards and requires 7 mana (so no earlier than turn 6 with the coin). This makes one large assumption that the Warrior is at 10 health or less so that the giants are free. At higher mana (such as 10) they can have a bit more life and still pull off some devastating results. So the idea is that the Warrior will be at a low enough health where they can drop their giants for free or close to it. Then they drop the Commander, 2 Giants and attack the face, the 2 brewmasters to return the giants to their hand and then replay the giants to the opponent's face a second time. Done right that's 38 points of damage (32 from the giants attacking twice and 6 more from the Brewmasters). It might sound difficult to get 5, specific, cards for a combo in your hand. However, the Warrior packs their deck with a LOT of card draw to cycle through their deck really fast. Novice Engineers, Loot Hoarders, Shield Slam, Shield Block, Azure Drakes, and even Bloodmage Thalnos are used for this purpose. So while a Warrior can get unlucky with draws, it's actually more consistent than you might think. By turn 7 a Warrior will have drawn a base of 10 cards if going first (not to mention what was mulliganed into) and, likely, another 10 cards or so from card draw.

The most accepted counter is to do a combination of killing them by turn 5, dropping a bunch of taunters and holding their life around 15 and then making a big push to kill the Warrior in one turn. So needless to say different classes will go about this different ways. Remember above I said that 6 cards were spent on the combo (5 are needed but a warrior will pack an extra Warsong Commander to increase reliability) and a bunch of card draw cards. The rest of their cards are control based cards. For example, you can't hold the warrior at 15 health and simply play minion after minion and taunt after taunt until you have lethal. The Warrior is going to be using weapons to intentionally bring his life off so he can throw out the combo. He's also, likely, to be playing Brawl to wipe your board of minions and taunters. If a big taunter is left, weapon to it's face + Executue.

In my opinion the deck is not fun to play against. The Warrior relies on people not knowing the combo so he can smash them early. But if you know what's coming and start to play around the combo, the game drags out for a VERY long time as you are each trying to counter the other. Some people might like this dance but it makes for exhausting gameplay.
 

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider
3,053
133
So, any good decks that don't use a bunch of rare cards? I have a few epics now (like 4 I think), but I have mostly unlocked cards and a lot of commons. What would be the best course of action?
Warlock rush is, by far, the cheapest, effective, deck to put together. You don't need a single Legendary card to make it work. No epics and a limited number of rares.

Mage and Priest are also good decks at lower ranks because they get a lot of powerful cards in their basic set and as commons. That's one of the reasons that there is so much Mage hate and why priest hate continues despite the meta moving away from them and one of their core cards being nerfed heavily.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,072
2,267
Hunter OTK was just before I started paying attention, but I think one of the major differences I've heard is you can play around warrior OTK to some extent, whereas with Hunter it didn't matter what you did? That seems like a huge difference to me.
Yes and no. You could play around the hunter OTK as much as you can this one, probably even more, by simply spamming the board a lot and killing him fast or by playing big taunters with a bunch of shit so he couldn't deadly shot them. Against warrior OTK it's a lot harder, first because there's multiple ways to OTK and you don't necessarily know which one it is(hunter was always a bunch of shit beasts+unleash the hounds, so it was a swarm of small mobs, which is awful against large taunters for example, even moshugan or whatever that 1/7 is).

Maybe it's giants so you can't drop him low, maybe it's gorehowl+alex so you need to keep a taunter or an ooze and play it right after gorehowl, maybe it's worgens and you need big taunters. If you flood the board, you get brawled and lose most of your shit for "free". If you play bigger mobs, well first you're not doing much early and it lets him easily drop his health by attacking into them or try to control them with executes. It's very hard to play around, and only certain decks can actually do so. Not every deck can deal 16 damage in one turn off a very small board(like 2creatures with 3 or less attack so he can't attack into one and trigger giants at a decent cost). It's possible you also had to use the solutions to clear something early, warriors still tend to run frothing and arathi weapon masters because they can win off them sometimes without relying on the combo if the opponent gets shit draws.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
How come every time I'm playing against a shaman he gets the perfect combination of spell damage and taunt totems and when I play a Shaman it's searing totems all day e'ry day
 

Byr

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,666
4,960
Defender of Argus is really the only card I think is way over the top these days.
id say blood imp is the one over the top card these days. Not particularly due to the card itself but how the extra health gets lost first even when the blood imp dies in the same turn. I do agree that argus is a bit over the top too, but its that way for every deck and can be played in just about anything so it doesnt really imbalance anything.
 

Column_sl

shitlord
9,833
7
id say blood imp is the one over the top card these days. Not particularly due to the card itself but how the extra health gets lost first even when the blood imp dies in the same turn.
This is what I thought they were going to nerf on the card, but they took away the damage which imho is a non factor.
 

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
How come every time I'm playing against a shaman he gets the perfect combination of spell damage and taunt totems and when I play a Shaman it's searing totems all day e'ry day
I had one of those bull shit arena runs the other night. One of the losses was to a shaman. I had two 2 drops so I coin out a 3/2 turn 1. Turn 2 he gets a healing totem. I kill the healing totem with the 3/2 and I debate on if I want to play my other 2 drop, an amani berserker, because of forked lightning. But he's got an empty board and playing nothing would be bad tempo so I play the berserker assuming I'll at least be left with a 5/1. Wrong, he just so happens to get a spell totem and then 2 for 1's my two minions with his 1 cost card. Throughout the game I repeatedly clear his board, even totems, and on 3 separate occasions he draws a spell power totem so he can use a lightning bolt to kill 3 different 4 hp minions. He somehow didn't manage to roll a spell power totem before a lightning storm, but no matter, it still killed all 3 of my 3 hp minions on the board. Nearing the end of the game he is starting to take board control, but he only has about 6 hp remaining; no matter he draws a fucking taunt totem 3 turns in a row. If at any fucking point in the game rng would have been on my side saving just one of my minions that died to bad luck or not given him a taunt totem I would have won. The taunt totems weren't so bad because like I said at that point he was taking board control so it was only like a 50/50 shot each time, but each time on the spell totem he had a 25% chance and he did it 4 times in one game.
 

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider
3,053
133
Test season 2 is supposed to start later this week. Can't come soon enough in my opinion. All day "casual" mode has been absolutely brutal...