Heroes of the Storm

Oloh_sl

shitlord
298
0
But it is in a mindless way.
Basically, if this game wasn't made by Blizzard, I would say to cash it in and forget about it. You can say a lot of things about Blizzard, but one thing they do REALLY well, is iterate and improve. I love LOL. I play it almost every night. I have almost 1500 games, own every champ, own like 300 skins, played most positions and champs in a competitive 5s team, but the game seriously sucks when you boil it down to a design perspective. It's problems are even recognized by Riot (1) Snowballing, (2) Gold/EXP Distribution between Roles, (3) obviousness of gear choices, and (4) lack of cues as to when you did something wrong or did something right, and (5) extremely stiff barrier to entry. Riot would list every one of these things as an "issue" with the game.

The problem is that Riot doesn't need to fix them. They are making bank on the game and, although they may be issues, they aren't severe enough to keep people from playing and paying. They could, if they wanted, immediately fix these issues, but then they risk alienating the massive player base that they accumulated. Still, that doesn't mean that someone else cant come along and fix them and produce a better project.

Every one of Blizzards changes from LOL are designed to eliminate 'problems' with the game. They made no changes just to make changes or to be different. They made them to fix the issues on the list above. Now the problem with doing it this way is that it takes a TON of time and energy to make such drastic changes and still come away with the fun of original. Taking LOL and making it better is right in Blizzards skill set. They aren't there yet, but they are on the right track. Blizzard has the bankroll to spend another 3 years in alpha until they get it right. I suspect they will, but it probably wont look a lot like the game we are playing now.

I think they just need to spend 3 months watching and see what happens to the meta before they make any drastic changes. Some things that I suspect they will need to iterate on:

1. Laning is not fun now. It seems like a forced aspect of the game without last hitting. The minions (creeps?) are just there. They don't really add any value to what is going on in lane. They have the right idea with the health globes, but its not enough.

2. They need to add some structure to the "jungle" right now. Maybe a big mob at level 1 that takes a number of people to kill equal to 5-the number of lanes (so either 3 or 2) and give some benefit. Maybe killing it starts the Mercenaries spawns. This will give a little bit of level 1 maneuvering and game play.

3. There needs to be more incentive to keep people in lane longer...because the game breaks down to a clusterfuck of not knowing what is going on very rapidly. Maybe the team EXP per mob needs to be upped or something, but there needs to be some sort of "centering" of the game so new players have a decent idea as to what they should be doing.
 

Delly

Trakanon Raider
2,981
622
Its a clusterfuck because people haven't figured out the most optimal way to play. I am way more interested to see what the game is like after people dissect the game and come up with "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY" strategies.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
Its a clusterfuck because people haven't figured out the most optimal way to play. I am way more interested to see what the game is like after people dissect the game and come up with "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY" strategies.
Which is why he wanted the game to simmer for 3 months or so. One of the major downsides is there is only about 600-1k people on at any given time. The player base isn't really large enough or good enough to grind out a ton of games to figure out how to play the game properly.

To expand on his thoughts I agree the HP globes seem a novelty at best. They heal for very trivial amounts of HP especially at the higher levels. I assume the HP restored is static and not % based. I'd change it to a % model first and foremost.

I'd like to see the HP globes obtainable by either team. Right now it seems like if your opponent gets a globe it shows up as a translucent orb on your screen. So you can camp it but in the end it doesn't matter too much. If the HP globes were more valuable (perhaps bonus XP?) and shared it would instigate team fights at level 1 over this resource. Instead of right now where level 1 - 6'ish is basically just waiting for objectives to start.

Although the jungle does have big mobs you can fight. The golems can be fought. I'm not sure if they can be taken down at level 1 or not by a 5 man.
 

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
Although the jungle does have big mobs you can fight. The golems can be fought. I'm not sure if they can be taken down at level 1 or not by a 5 man.
Maybe? I was watching destiny stream and him playing the goblin mech guy and a falstad took it down past half health at lvl 6. So with the goblin guy, a tank, and your 3 other teammates it may be possible. That goblin mech guy seems really strong at pushing lanes + when the waves would be pushed back destiny would go solo a mercenary camp so then you can push hard in lane again or do some other objective.
 

ZProtoss

Golden Squire
395
15
League of Legends is the largest game in the world. Dota2 is the most played game on Steam. It's just you that has a problem with it.
What? Ronne this is absolutely idiotic logic, and you should know better. LOL and DOTA2 might be huge games, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a massive amount of people (larger than the player base for those games) that clearly were turned off by them for one reason or another.
 

Amzin

Lord Nagafen Raider
2,917
361
What? Ronne this is absolutely idiotic logic, and you should know better. LOL and DOTA2 might be huge games, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a massive amount of people (larger than the player base for those games) that clearly were turned off by them for one reason or another.
You can make that argument for every game that's ever come out, ever, multiplayer or not. It's a pointless statement. The fact is, League and DOTA arehuge. The removal of such core concepts while still trying to pass yourself off as a moba is problematic. This is why I said I don't think HotS is really a moba in the same sense as those, even though it falls under the description of the name 'moba' itself. It's extraordinarily unlikely that the majority of people who didn't get into League or dota didn't get into them because of last hitting, when the games are as big, complicated, and multifaceted as they are.
 

Oloh_sl

shitlord
298
0
It's extraordinarily unlikely that the majority of people who didn't get into League or dota didn't get into them because of last hitting, when the games are as big, complicated, and multifaceted as they are.
In fairness, DOTA had denying when it came to last hitting, and LOL nerfed it to remove it. At the time, everyone thought that LOL was a dumbed down version of DOTA. Now, it seems no one really misses Denying and if they do, it is not enough to keep millions playing. Who is to say that taking another step further wouldn't go the same way.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically good about last hitting. It is a dumb and un-intuitive mechanic, but it DOES allow players to distinguish themselves, provide a number for being good, and permit winning the lane in ways that are not taking towers and getting kills. That is all good and there is no doubt about that. If HotS can find a way to capture the good things without last hitting, then it will be a major win. It is not there yet, but perhaps there is a path to capture the back and forth trading and maneuvering that goes into a last hitting environment without actually requiring last hitting. It could be as simple as "tagging" the creep at some point, in addition to what they are doing right now.
 

Louis

Trakanon Raider
2,836
1,105
Yea after watching some streams I can't see myself playing this. I like dota/lol for the complexities, competitiveness, and difficulty it provides. This game is a chaotic spam fest. Maybe I'll look at it again in the future if it gets fleshed out any, but as of now meh.
 

Sulrn

Deuces
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360
Looks like a game made by babies, for babies.
Obvious troll is obvious?

The game has made some arguably bad design choices and missed an opportunity for an even greater game, but taking it that far ignores its positive merits entirely.
 
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The game will appeal to those lower MMR players from both DOTA2 and LoL that find the team fighting and ganking fun but don't like the more mechanical or tedious barriers to entry like last hitting. I enjoy last hitting, snowballing, lane control, etc. So I don't see this game replacing LoL for me, however I do see it being a nice drop in and play with friends or a way to get my moba fix when I can't spend an hour or two getting a couple of league games in.
 

an accordion_sl

shitlord
2,162
8
You guys are being morons making all these broad assumptions about the game. Wait until some real top tier moba players play it and the metagame develops beyond what pubs are doing.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
What? Ronne this is absolutely idiotic logic, and you should know better. LOL and DOTA2 might be huge games, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a massive amount of people (larger than the player base for those games) that clearly were turned off by them for one reason or another.
Put it this way:
Worldwide 33 million people watched the League of Legends world championship game.
Worldwide 112 million people watched the Superbowl this year.
Worldwide 15 million people watched Game 6 of the World Series last year.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
In fairness, DOTA had denying when it came to last hitting, and LOL nerfed it to remove it. At the time, everyone thought that LOL was a dumbed down version of DOTA. Now, it seems no one really misses Denying and if they do, it is not enough to keep millions playing. Who is to say that taking another step further wouldn't go the same way.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically good about last hitting. It is a dumb and un-intuitive mechanic, but it DOES allow players to distinguish themselves, provide a number for being good, and permit winning the lane in ways that are not taking towers and getting kills. That is all good and there is no doubt about that. If HotS can find a way to capture the good things without last hitting, then it will be a major win. It is not there yet, but perhaps there is a path to capture the back and forth trading and maneuvering that goes into a last hitting environment without actually requiring last hitting. It could be as simple as "tagging" the creep at some point, in addition to what they are doing right now.
This. You can get rid of last hitting, but you need to put some kind of metric that allows for a single player to feel good about themselves. In LOL, good last hitting mechanics leads you to more gold (items) and you have a creep score number to keep track of how good you are doing. These are individual metrics so that when a game is over, and you lost, you can see where you can improve next time, or why you lost your lane which led to a losing game.

HOTS seems to be a group/team oriented game, but players need some way to individualize and measure their performance. That creates stickiness.

Does HOTS have anything like that?
 
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You guys are being morons making all these broad assumptions about the game. Wait until some real top tier moba players play it and the metagame develops beyond what pubs are doing.
Im not making any assumption that isn't backed up by the information we currently have. Barring you laning against an idiot, you literally have no way to increase your personal power until objectives become available, and even then your team gains or loses power across the board, instead of on a personal level. Now I'm not saying this is bad, it is just different. But I can't really see DoTA/LoL level complexity with what the game gives you to work with.
 

ZProtoss

Golden Squire
395
15
Put it this way:
Worldwide 33 million people watched the League of Legends world championship game.
Worldwide 112 million people watched the Superbowl this year.
Worldwide 15 million people watched Game 6 of the World Series last year.
Here's the base argument that you're not getting. Ronne's argument was:

"If you don't like League's mechanics, something is wrong with you because of how many people enjoy League."

My argument is: The amount of gamers that don't enjoy league for one reason or another still vastly outnumber the amount of people that enjoy League. It doesn't matter that League is popular relative to other games, the point is that relative to the total base of available gamers, there's a shitload of people who don't particularly care for it.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
You're still thinking inside the MOBA box which this entire thread is as well. In HOTS you don't really "lose a lane" in the MOBA sense. Every hero has the ability to push back creep waves fairly effectively. Since the game is all about team work individual accolades aren't necessarily required or visible. HOTS does keep track of how much XP you earned, kills, deaths and how many mechanical achievements you accrued. But none of those mean a whole lot. Like if I'm on Raynor and I'm teamed with an Uther clearing the mines I'm going to get a zero score for mechanics because he'll pick up all the skulls. But you also need to understand that HOTS doesn't have a 1-5 lineup. Everyone is in charge of pushing and killing. Sure there are some more vanilla supports who aren't quite as good as killing but it isn't like a 5 spot where they are pretty much incapable of killing outside of stealing kills by using a high burst ability. At level 1 each hero could clear a creep wave unlike in DOTA where at level 1 you're a glorified creep.

But I always found the scoreboard muddy and very much not telling the whole tale in DOTA. Even with a great CS if you never participated in fights and allowed your team to get snowballed while just AFK farming on a 1 *in general* that isn't good enough to win unless you're on a Chinese pro team. In HOTS you'll need to observe more of your overall plan and strategy. Right now it seems mostly revolving around who can effectively control the merc camps and complete objectives.

I think HOTS is still suffering from them saying it was the next DOTA. Which it clearly isn't trying to do that anymore. It isn't exactly inventing a new genre but the difference between HOTS and LoL is greater than the difference between DOTA and LoL, imo.
 

Byr

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,703
5,060
thats a hard argument to make seeing as theres no metrics on people who have tried LoL and didnt like it. Its basically assuming that so many people dont play LoL that surely more of them tried it and didnt like it than tried and lked.