Heroes of the Storm

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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The rate of gold gain doesn't seem to be that great, is it bad?
Seems ok if you're chaining games to get levels, once you're capped though from what I've seen the only source of gold is the 500g a day from the daily, which means you're fucked. As long as you're leveling up it seems to be similar to lol rate or so, which is pretty shit but not too bad I guess. I doubt they'll go with this system in the final version anyway, especially the fucked at cap thing. Probably will add a small amount gold per game played in versus and then cap it daily, similar to hearthstone.
 

j00t

Silver Baronet of the Realm
7,380
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You do realize d3 is still lagging like a bitch, is 2 or 3 years later? I'm sure they'll get the issues ironed out, but its pretty fucking ridiculous that with all the lag and connection issues they had at release that they would have the same problems with RoS.
Uh... People couldn't connect to d3 at launch for days. Some people for weeks. Ros has some irritating lag. That is a huge difference
 

Ao-

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<WoW Guild Officer>
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that can take until the beta when more people get in, barely anyone is streaming HotS and those who did stopped doing so, eg Kripparian
Is there an NDA or something that says not to stream? If I wasn't terrible at MOBA (and HotS) I'd set it up.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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There is no NDA with this game. Plenty of people streamed it when it was new. I think most have just moved on to other things.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
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Seems ok if you're chaining games to get levels, once you're capped though from what I've seen the only source of gold is the 500g a day from the daily, which means you're fucked. As long as you're leveling up it seems to be similar to lol rate or so, which is pretty shit but not too bad I guess. I doubt they'll go with this system in the final version anyway, especially the fucked at cap thing. Probably will add a small amount gold per game played in versus and then cap it daily, similar to hearthstone.
I agree with you that they will modify this, but...

LoL champion = 6300 IP. Average IP per game is what, 200 a win and 75 a loss or some such? Assume a 50 percent win ratio: 6300/137 = 45 games. Average game length is 35 minutes? 26 hours. So 26 hours of LoL to buy a champion vice 20 days of playing 1-2 games in HOTS to buy a hero. I don't know how many hours a day the average LoL player plays, but I guess I'm trying to point out that an LoL player doesn't grind up to buy a new champ very quickly. HoTS current implementation caps grinding as a method to unlock, and I suspect its a design decision to encourage the 8 hour a day players to spend some $ on boosts.

EDIT:

I forgot LoL has a daily win award. Assume average LoL player plays two games a day. 150 (First Win) + 200 (Win) + 75 (Loss) = 425 a day. 6300/425 = 15 days. Compared to HOTS at 20 days.

There is no NDA with this game. Plenty of people streamed it when it was new. I think most have just moved on to other things.
I wanted to watch HOTS streams last night but there really isn't a very good selection, which makes sense. Access to the alpha is so limited so the thousands of people who might watch to learn how to play just aren't there. Plus, the frequent lag/stuttering is just obnoxious. It almost feels like its an Alpha.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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Daillies aren't always 500g though. Some are 200g only(or maybe it's 250 forgot). It's the same fucking shit as hearthstone where depending on RNG you get fucked for the day on gold gain.

But yeah basically it's what you explained, their concept is that it fucks people who play a lot but is relatively similar(even though currently shittier) for casuals who only play 1-2hours a day. As someone who tend to play a lot when I like a game, I can't say I'm pleased with that direction. Even the LoL system, which I think is pretty much shit, is better. Also in LoL since you gain IP per match, they have IP boosts which are pretty much a lot better than actually buying champions since you get a lot more IP(well assuming you pick the "per day" boosts vs the "per win" boosts and play a lot during these days) so you pop one during the weekend, go crazy and you actually get direct results.

I wouldn't mind so much if there wasn't some guy saying how they want HotS to be competitive and shit. Building the game from the ground up as a casual favored system that punishes hardcore players then saying they want competition is such fucking retardation.

That's why I hope(and expect) massive changes to the current systems. So I'm not too angry about it for now since to me it's unlikely it'll stay like this, but it's still a fucking weird starting point.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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The hero packs are a pretty decent deal, though. Not sure if it is an alpha-only thing but it brings the price of heroes down pretty substantially.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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Plus, the frequent lag/stuttering is just obnoxious. It almost feels like its an Alpha.
Yeah, I am really loving the game atm, but the lag/stuttering had me ragequit at one point last night.

Also, holy shit at the crappy community even in the alpha. People will start calling people "trash" 30 seconds into the match and then immediately start suiciding the entire match after that. I have often heard how toxic the LoL pugging scene is, but I am thinking that there is something about MOBAs that just bring it out. I have done more WoW battlegrounds than I can count, but even in the alpha of Heroes, the absurdities stand out.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Yeah the game was really good community-wise the very first wave of invites. Each wave after that has brought more and more toxic people. Since there is no penalty for abandon if things look like they're going south everyone just immediately quits. Makes for very boring games for both the losing and winning team.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
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I think they'll absolutely add in some sort of boost system. But to be fair, if you spend $50 on two packs you already have half the champs. But I think they absolutely do need to take into consideration the people who can't afford shit AND want to grind like crazy, since that sums up a substantial portion of their market. I'm like you in the sense that if I like a game I'll go ham on it, but I have no problem paying for a champ I want to play now. I'd rather impulse buy Stitches @ $10 than impulse buy a $10 lunch. Even if I had purchased EVERY SINGLE LoL champion flat out with $, I would still have a highly favorable rate of return for $/fun hours. I've played over 2000 games of LoL -- had I spent $1k on LoL I'd still have received a $1/1hr fun ratio. But some people have some mental block that makes them balk at spending money on game shit "they can get for free", whatever, math and time value calculations are Too Hard.

On a side note, I really really dislike how teams have no say over their composition. I'm sure this will change too, I'd much rather see a game built around a system similiar to LoL's teamfinder. I'm definitely still a newb at HOTS but I've seen some comps that just make no sense. One of the benefits to LoL's system is that the player base knows which champs are bullshit, and (generally) knows how to set up a team that has a chance at a win. HOTS system seems to really RNG the teams right now.

Yeah the game was really good community-wise the very first wave of invites. Each wave after that has brought more and more toxic people. Since there is no penalty for abandon if things look like they're going south everyone just immediately quits. Makes for very boring games for both the losing and winning team.
EDIT: Asshole players in games have been around forever; choosing to solo in a team game means you'll just have to deal -- assholes are directly responsible for the success of the team and they have little to no repercussions for being an asshole. I don't know why people act surprised anymore. I'd like to see HOTS implement something similar to D3's communities/clans. Give me a wider pool of people than just my friends list and make it easy to set up a 5 man pre-made. You could really build a lot of intuitive systems around this that reward/encourage people to group more often as opposed to just YOLO-queuing and becoming frustrated when feeding occurs and raging follows.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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Well you have half of what's in now. By release 2 packs will probably get you 20% of the total heroes, if that. Paying 50bucks for that few feels pretty shitty.

They went with the greedy choice, which is copying the LoL system, which is the greediest of the genre. I hate it but I can also reason that it's not like EA mobile bad either, it's just the greedy choice, every champion has to be bought individually, the free rotation is relatively small and only change once a week, you cannot test champions, you also need to buy runes with the same ressource. There's sales and bundles(well not that many last time I played but they had some) but that goes into spending actual money on the game. I don't disagree it's a good ratio of $ vs time but it's still $ and the barrier of entry as a new player is big(and gets bigger over time).

Sure as a new player you'll probably just enjoy playing the free rotation, leveling up, unlocking rune pages and shit. You don't hit the barrier right away, it eases you into it. Once you start mastering the game though, get to 30, have a good amount of runes and start doing ranked is when the barrier hits you in the face with a giant fuck you. You need champions for each role and you probably need the meta champions if you don't want to get into an argument half of the game right from the pickphase. You need at least 2 roles worth of champions. You start mastering the game but you cannot master champions without buying them first and if you're really into the game, you quickly reach a point where it's not viable to use IP only on champions. It's just a pretty shitty feeling at that point, but some people avoid that because they really like a small pool of champions and only play these or because they only play a single role or shit like that, so it varies depending on people. And a lot of people are casuals, they never reach that point, they never play ranked or play ranked "for fun" and are forever bronze scrubs, they play their 1win a day in coop then play 1 or 2 games in ranked and log off for the day and then they notice they have enough IP to buy a champion and look at the list wondering what to buy, making a post on reddit for suggestions.

Still I personally don't like it, but I can accept it's not the worst it could be, it is however the worst there is currently, at least from the shit I follow. HoN, and someone might need to correct me since I'm going off vague memories here, has every heroes unlocked and you only pay to get early access to the new heroes(obviously not the same price as what you pay in lol). The rest is skins and announcers and shit like that. Smite has a rotation and the same systems, however you can also decide to pay the massive sum of TWENTY FIVE dollars to unlock every god. Every future ones too. Dota is dota so whatever, can't compare the steam workshop shit and all but obviously as everyone knows, every hero is unlocked from the start. I don't really know any other "mobas" so my comparison stops here, but between those 4, which are probably the biggest in the genre, LoL has by far the worst system. But also potentially the one that makes the most money and is the most successful(well the game is, not the system).

I'd be extremely pleased if they just went with the Smite way. Make it 80bucks if you want, call it HotS Collector Edition, and unlock every hero now and forever. And I'd be fine with that. But in the LoL system, 80 bucks get you like 1/8th of the roster, possibly more if you buy only the low cost champions/buy only during sales. I don't think they will however, there's just too much money to be made. I just hope they adjust their system to be less shit and to not punish people who play a lot, or at least not punish people who play well. Hearthstone does it relatively decently, if you can maintain a good arena ratio win rate, you can play forever and accumulate cards extremely fast. If you're playing like shit though, you don't accumulate gold very fast at all and you're mostly going to rely on the daillies and you don't unlock shit. I kinda like that system, hope they do something similar.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
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Honestly Pyros, I don't see how you can point at LoL's business model and call it greedy whatsoever. I'm just one example; I've probably spent $200 on LoL in the last three years in exchange for 1500+ hours of gaming. I feel good about where my money went. LoL has an amazing pro scene, and Riot built it from the ground up with massive cash infusions. Also, for every guy like me there are ten others who pay nothing. I'm okay with that too.

I think its insanely greedy for a player not willing to pay any money to think they are entitled to all the content. I'm okay with how a fresh level 30 needs to shell out some cash if he wants to get serious about ranked games and buy a crapton of runes/runepages/meta champs. Obviously, many other people are okay with that too. But you don't need to do this, many of the guides to ranking up in LoL hinge on focusing on 1-3 champions. You seem to be claiming that a LoL player is entitled to ALL of the LoL content for free, and that just makes zero sense. They get to enjoy a substantial amount of content on a casual basis, and have plenty enough knowledge by the time they hit 30 whether or not it'd be worth some cash to get more involved. If someone is upset that they feel its prohibitively hard to break into Plat/Diamond/Challenger without paying any money, they need to slap themselves. In what other hobby can you compete on a national level in the top 1 percentile for free?
 
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Pyros is primarily a DoTA 2 player I believe. So he's used to a game that gives you all mechanical content for free. Unfortunately every company isn't steam and can afford to give away a triple A title solely in an effort to push their service.
 

an accordion_sl

shitlord
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Pyros is primarily a DoTA 2 player I believe. So he's used to a game that gives you all mechanical content for free. Unfortunately every company isn't steam and can afford to give away a triple A title solely in an effort to push their service.
Valve makes bank on dota2 without having to create a majority of the content that is purchased. Seems LoL players don't really understand dotas business model.
 
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Valve makes bank on dota2 without having to create a majority of the content that is purchased. Seems LoL players don't really understand dotas business model.
I understand DoTA's business model just fine. I also understand that what Valve can do when releasing a ftp game and what a startup like Riot was could do upon release to ensure good cash flow are two different beasts. One has the backing of a game distribution platform, the steam design tools for their users and the cosmetic store. Riot had to monetize everything to get off the ground. It is still cute that every time a "LoL" player chimes in on anything that touches upon DotA, the Dota players try and make smug and condescending posts. A more insecure gaming community I have never met.
 

an accordion_sl

shitlord
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8
Riot did not HAVE to monetize everything to get off the ground. They chose to because they were smart enough to see the potential profit of it before F2P was mainstream. S2 made an identical game around the same time without requiring micro transactions.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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606
I honestly don't get the up-in-arms stance on the pricing of this game. Every week you get 5 new heroes to play. If you choose you can spend $5-10 to get a hero to play forever. Or buy a pack for $30 or whatever and get 5 or so heroes. They seem to keep the rotation so there is a tank, melee & ranged assassin and support character so you can play your favorite style. All of that for the price of nothing. It sounds reasonable to me. This isn't the only forum where I've read people think the game is a rip off.
 
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HoN also cratered and died without ever even touching 1/100th of Leagues player base numbers. You're also comparing a "box" price game against a f2p ( I am aware that HoN later went ftp but that isn't relevant to the discussion).
 

an accordion_sl

shitlord
2,162
8
I honestly don't get the up-in-arms stance on the pricing of this game. Every week you get 5 new heroes to play. If you choose you can spend $5-10 to get a hero to play forever. Or buy a pack for $30 or whatever and get 5 or so heroes. They seem to keep the rotation so there is a tank, melee & ranged assassin and support character so you can play your favorite style. All of that for the price of nothing. It sounds reasonable to me. This isn't the only forum where I've read people think the game is a rip off.
If you were to purchase every single hero in these games that charge for new additions, it comes out to well above standard box prices. I don't blame them for charging as much as the player base is willing to pay, but can see why people are annoyed by it.