Home buying thread

Cathan

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DC? My friend found some really nice homes in the 650? range
Where was he looking? My family lives in NC so I'm tied firmly to the northern Virginia area along the 95 corridor. If I go over into Maryland or west from DC staying in NOVA it makes my trip home to NC a beast. Taxes are worse in Maryland than VA also (from what I've seen so far) plus I just hate the fucking north. God Damn did I hate NYC. I like the people I work with up there but the average NYC resident can suck it. There are good people, lots of em, but there are a ton of fucking assholes too.

I'm trying to run this analysis on what's better between taking a loan on my retirement to put money down on the mortgage or riding a 0 down VA loan. I sent the following to the Navy FED loan officer:

"Can you explain the Discount Points and Origination Fee or refer me to a document that explains them please? Is there a table that shows the different rates based on the discount points/origination fees I can view?

I am looking at how putting money down affects the total loan and the VA funding fee also. The VA funding fee for first time buyers is 2.15% with a down payment 0-4.99%, 1.5% for 5-9.99% down and 1.25% with 10% down.

Does Navy Federal's discount points/origination fee count as a down payment that would help lower the VA funding fee or would there be an additional fee on top of the discount points/original fee required in the loan process to reduce the VA funding fee?"

The loan officer sent me this on a $650k preapproval:
· 3.25% - 0 DISCOUNT PTS. 0 ORIGINATION FEE
· PI – 2893
· FEES – 0
· INTEREST PAID OVER 30 YRS - $376855

· 3.00% - 0 DISCOUNT PTS. 1 ORIGINATION FEE
· PI – 2803
· FEES – 6649.50
· INTEREST PAID OVER 30 YRS - $344294.17

· 2.875% - 1 DISCOUNT PTS. 1 ORIGINATION FEE
· PI – 2758
· FEES – 13299
· INTEREST PAID OVER 30 YRS - $328227

· 2.625% - 3 DISCOUNT PTS. 1 ORIGINATION FEE
· PI – 2670
· FEES – 26598
· INTEREST PAID OVER 30 YRS - $296529


I'm trying to figure out if Navy Feds "discount points/orgination fees" count toward the down payment that lowers the VA funding fee rate or not to see if I can double dip on a down payment that lowers the VA funding fee AND the interest rate.

If 5% down gets the VA funding fee to 1.5% AND pushes the interest rate down to 2.625% that's pretty fucking awesome.
 

Cathan

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You save ~1k in monthly payments for the first 15 years. And then you spend ~2k more in monthly payments in the final 15 years. You would have to take the money you saved in the first 15 and double it via investments over the same time period to "break even". With compounding returns it's more than possible, especially if you are of the mindset that 10 year bull runs like what we just came out of are the norm. But your number crunching is wrong.

The TOTAL cost of the mortgage is 150k more on the 30 year term. But you're acting like the total cost is the same for both terms and applying the difference to monthly payments.

I didn't understand what you were planning to do with the money between the 15 and 30 year mortgage differences. With good longterm investments you're very likely right. For 30 years that's long enough to more than double the difference in the total loan delta assuming there isn't a big drop in the market between years 25-30. If there was a good long bull market it should work though.
 

Kiroy

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Alright, this has been a painfully long wait, but I've got all of my taxes current, debt paid off and a home we're interested in. Never bought a house before and zero idea how this process goes.

What do I need to do to get the ball rolling....just connect with a realtor and let them hold my hand through the process? We're not pre-approved for a loan or anything, so should that come first?

Just find a good realtor (ask around, friends/family and shit). If you trust them they'll have their own brokers/lenders/bankers, inspectors, title company ect. They'll tell you the very first thing you need to do is get pre approved so you can do that through whatever bank and get it overwith. It's pretty annoying coming up with all the paperwork they'll want (especially if self employed), so get that bullshit over with asap and then it's a docusign coast till the end of the deal.
 
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Kiroy

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Bandwagon Bandwagon I should add, when looking at homes look at a fuckload and pick a few you like, try your damnedest (tell the wife) not to fall totally in love with just one, deals fall apart in escrow all the time
 

Bandwagon

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Bandwagon Bandwagon I should add, when looking at homes look at a fuckload and pick a few you like, try your damnedest (tell the wife) not to fall totally in love with just one, deals fall apart in escrow all the time
I love this garage. Pretty sure there's a house attached. The current owner is a sassy old welder and I want to give him money.

giphy.gif
 

LachiusTZ

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Stafford county, right by the Rappahannock river.

379k for 4 acres and 3000sqft, brand new
 

GuardianX

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Alright, this has been a painfully long wait, but I've got all of my taxes current, debt paid off and a home we're interested in. Never bought a house before and zero idea how this process goes.

What do I need to do to get the ball rolling....just connect with a realtor and let them hold my hand through the process? We're not pre-approved for a loan or anything, so should that come first?

PREPARE YOUR ANUS, WALL-O-TEXT INCOMING.

---

1 - Get Approved

Call your checking / savings bank, get pre-approved so you know what you are "in the market for" GENERALLY, you just want a ballpark really.

2 - Get your Rates

Go to https://costcofinance.com/ if you are a member and pop in relative details and your pre-approval amount. You wanna find out things like the general rates for 30 and 15 year loans because while you may get pre-approved for that nice 1.3 million dollar house, the payments will fuck you. You WANT a 15 year loan, the difference between a 15 year and a 30 year loan in interest saved is significant, not 10 or 20% in savings, more like 5-10 TIMES the interest paid to a 15 year loan. Put it this way, I'm dropping from a 30 year to a 15 year and my savings are around 100,000 Dollars.

3 - Understand your Mortgage

If your down-payment is under 20% of your home value you will pay PMI which is basically an additional charge to your mortgage
Your local taxes will be paid by your lender, charged monthly via your mortgage
Your home insurance will be paid for by your lender, charged monthly via your mortgage

Ultimately your home payment will look somewhat like this:

Principal + Interest (the payment given to you when you looked up rates on costco (or any rate site)
Taxes
Insurance
PMI (if under 20% down-payment)

4 - Find your tax and insurance rates

Personally i like redfin ( https://www.redfin.com/ ) because you can pop in information or click a house and generally see stats like:

1589328416549.png


That tell you where your money is going. You can even toss in information that is more relevant to you, like if you KNOW your interest rate is going to be 3% and not 3.5% OR if you know that your insurance rate is going to be roughly 5000 a year and not 8400. It'll give you a better understanding of what you can reasonably afford. Understand that these are general ESTIMATES usually based on percentages, if you know your area tax rate then it's better to use concrete numbers than the estimates given to you by a site.

Typically you can find the rates of an area by going to the Tax Assessor website for your county.

5 - Determine your Limits

A realtor will attempt to sell you a home that is within your pre-approval limits, your pre-approval is not your "Affordability". He will sell you that 1.3 million dollar home, but you will possibly murder yourself making those payments. Find out, using all the information you gathered before this step, what home is affordable to you. It could be that 1.3 million is in your budget for comfortably living and making payments on while living a life you want to live. It is more likely that a home lower than your pre-approval rate will meet those conditions. Use that value as your limit, only cross it for a holy grail. you will see one or two holy grails in your life, a holy grail isn't a "I love the paint" home, it's a "This home will accommodate us as we grow, is a perfect location and won't murder us with payment worry."

6 - Find a home

Use a realator for this if you would like. Our market was SO fast moving that I was asking our realator about houses before he suggested them. They have tools you don't have though that allow them a better understanding about whats coming to market before it officially hits places like redfin. For my home purchase, since the market was insanely fast moving, I basically sent him an address, told him to bid and then he and I toured it after the bid.

7 - Bidding

You can low-ball, you can high ball, you can cancel and you can do whatever the fuck you want. Just understand most of that shit falls to your realtor so when they say "I don't know if they will accept it" it may be a case of expertise or embarrassment. If you are offering 10% under asking for a brand new home in a beautiful area, you aren't likely gunna be accepted. It could be that even if you offered 10% OVER asking you would still remain un-accepted. It all depends on your market, offer what you think is reasonable for a win on the property. Understand too that "people" you are bidding against for a property might not even be "people" but rather investment firms. Fuckin open-door...

8 - Getting accepted

Time to have your "dream home" shattered BEFORE you spend major money on it. Your realtor may suggest some inspectors, you can hire whoever you want or even do it yourself. Understand that you want someone that can basically shatter whatever dreams you had for this home and do it with precision and skill. You wanna know that the lovely garden outside that the wife / girlfiend loves is actually filled with red ants and termites that migrate into the master bedroom. You wanna know that when you turn the oven on to max the microwave beeps uncontrollably for an hour. All these things will save you from spending thousands on a home you should have left on the market OR will allow you to barter with the owner for concessions in price / repairs.

9 - Financing

Go to https://costcofinance.com/ or research where you want to finance through that has the best rates for you. Don't be afraid to walk away from a loan provider even after they have done credit checks on you, this is a "one time" purchase, so to speak so any credit fuckery won't fuck you long. You will need paycheck stubs for the past 2-4 paychecks, ID photos, address of past living situations going back about 5-7 years and bank statements for the last 2-4 months.

I didn't understand points when I began, points are basically payments made to the bank to secure lower rates. A lowering of interest from 3.25 to 2.5% may not sound like a lot but using the example above of around 750k, the difference over the life of the loan is 48,000 USD. That drop is TYPICALLY associated with a 3 point payment. Points are percent, a 3 point payment means a 3% of home-value, on a 750,000 home is 22,500 USD. That 22,500 is ON TOP OF your down-payment. So basically you are spending 22k to save 48k over 15 years. The effects of 3 points does not always COST 3%, in my case I am buying 3 points for 2.166%.

You can finance your points, it will increase the loan you take and lead to higher payments BUT it will lower your overall interest paid. This is really up to you, a lower loan rate saves thousands depending on the loan value, you'll be saving money by financing it but you need to determine if your new financed value is going to raise your payments beyond a comfortable level. Financed by you = Saving more money || Financed by them = Saving Money.

You can finance closing costs, it will increase the loan you take and lead to higher payments and interest paid. I argue AGAINST doing this unless you simply cannot pay the closing costs. Ultimately though, the value of the home over time will recover any interest paid on those closing costs but that is simply money lost to a black-hole. Financing your closing costs will increase your monthly payment at an ultimate loss, unlike points, but if the difference is you buy or don't buy a house, that is a decision that is up to you.

10 - "Due at Closing"

A down payment is only PART of the payments at closing. Depending on your area, taxes, the seller, your closing costs can be EXPENSIVE. The home is expected to have all of the funds available for insurance and taxes, since this value is a percentage of the property value it can be thousands to tens of thousands of dollars depending on your price range. If your down is 10% and your home is the one above from the picture, you are looking at closing costs cash on hand of around 105k-115k USD.

---

There you go, hope you find it helpful. That was our experience buying basically. Even though it's a wall of text I bet I skipped things.
 
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Bandwagon

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That is definitely a post to read when sober because I looked like Capt Jack sparrow by line 7 tonight. Working on the preapproval now, realtor hunting tomorrow. Thanks for the tips, I'll give it an honest read in the mor ing
 
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Pharazon2

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2 - Get your Rates

Go to https://costcofinance.com/ if you are a member and pop in relative details and your pre-approval amount. You wanna find out things like the general rates for 30 and 15 year loans because while you may get pre-approved for that nice 1.3 million dollar house, the payments will fuck you. You WANT a 15 year loan, the difference between a 15 year and a 30 year loan in interest saved is significant, not 10 or 20% in savings, more like 5-10 TIMES the interest paid to a 15 year loan. Put it this way, I'm dropping from a 30 year to a 15 year and my savings are around 100,000 Dollars.

Some not so great rates on there. I've been planning to use Wells Fargo for a while - not sure if I will in the end, but they had super competitive rates for a while because of all the negative publicity they had with that account nonsense. Not as great relatively as they were last year, but they still beat all the rates I see listed at the Costco site.



15 year is great for anybody that can swing it (a lot of people simply couldn't), but 5-10x the interest paid is a large exaggeration. I'd say more like 2-4 times. At the rates i'm looking at its pretty much 2.5-3x regardless of the amount borrowed. If somebody could actually afford the 15 year payments but didn't want to risk stretching things and went with the 30 year instead, then they could take the difference every month, stick it in an Index fund, and end up in not too bad shape relatively speaking after 15 years.

For example - with a 650k loan the difference in the monthly payment between 30-year and 15-year might be around $1550/month at today's rates. If you invest that $1550/mo into an index, you may end up in a better place after 30 years, depending on how good your returns are. The interest paid over the life of each loan is a big difference - 137k on the 15-year vs. 369k on the 30 years - BUT -

If you assume a meager 3% / year returns on the index you're saving that $1550 / month into (compounded monthly to average things) - you end up with $903k after 30 years.
Compare that to saving the full 15 year monthly payment amount ($4300) every month for years 16-30 and getting the same 3% / year return - you end up with $994k after the 30 years.

Just forgetting the interest and looking at what you end up with after 30 years, its not as different at you might think based on the interest alone. Change the % returns to hopefully more reasonably favorable levels and things actually turn in favor of the 30-year loan-

At 4% annual returns on the index fund its about break even.

At 5% annual returns you end up with $1.29M from the 30-year loan savings and $1.17M from the 15-year loan savings. Again, this is investing $1500/month for 30 years vs. investing $4300/month for years 16-30.

There are other considerations in the mix like the additional (not great under today's tax rules) mortgage interest savings from the 30-year, and the potential larger tax hits on the 30-year index fund holdings if they're sold, but overall I'm just pointing out that you can't just compare the interest paid over the life of the loan and say the 15-year is that amount better.
 
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GuardianX

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5-10x the interest paid is a large exaggeration.

Yeah, I could have cleaned up some bits and you nail the alternative investment points.

The 5-10 was meant in relation to my experience in refinancing where I'm going from a 4.75% 30 year to a 2.5% 15 year. Saving around 5x the cost in interest paid. I shouldn't have included it because he isn't refinancing, the difference between his interest paid will, most likely, be marginal between groups (30 year at 0 pts vs 30 year at 3 pts || 15 year at 0 pts vs 15 year at 3 pts ).
 

Nija

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I'm a few pages late but C Cathan are you really considering a $600-700k house on a $120k salary? Does your spouse work too or something?

Am I too risk adverse for not going that high?! Sounds like a lot of money to me.

Also, 15 year vs 30 year discussion, talk to local lenders. I had to back out of the nightmare house that I documented here awhile back, but I got 2.875% 30 year biweekly. It was a straight 3% at 30 fixed. Pay a little extra each payment to get the same effect as the 15 year fixed. The difference between 15 year and 30 year biweekly was pretty much nothing. I don't recall exactly but I want to say it was 2.65. These numbers are from the first week of April, so most likely it's completely different now.
 

Cathan

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I'm a few pages late but C Cathan are you really considering a $600-700k house on a $120k salary? Does your spouse work too or something?

Am I too risk adverse for not going that high?! Sounds like a lot of money to me.

The short answer is yes, I was. The more I run the numbers the more ridiculous that looks. If I want a standalone house that's the price range for an hour commute. I backed up, did some thinking on what I actually want in a place and told the realtor if she can find the nice modern layout with a great master bedroom/bathroom/huge closet in any home style from condo to town house to standalone house I'll consider it. I really don't want condo or townhouse but if it keeps the commute down... One thing I think about a condo is I'd be closer to work AND I'd be able to build a shitload of equity in it fast, probably even handle a 15 year mortgage... That makes the most sense but it's a balance between having a house I actually want. I have a new list of houses farther away to look at. The cool thing is the commute might not be terrible because there's an express train that goes farther out.
 

GuardianX

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I'm a few pages late but C Cathan are you really considering a $600-700k house on a $120k salary? Does your spouse work too or something?

Am I too risk adverse for not going that high?! Sounds like a lot of money to me.

I'm guessing a lot of people get the "Qualify" number and run with that, not understanding their payments could be well over their comfort level if they manage to buy a home at the peak of their "Pre-Qual" number.
 

Nija

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I'm guessing a lot of people get the "Qualify" number and run with that, not understanding their payments could be well over their comfort level if they manage to buy a home at the peak of their "Pre-Qual" number.

Alright, cool. I just bumped up my range slightly and I'm looking at a place for 550ish that's on 3.5 acres. That's just a hair below 2x income for me and thinking about going higher than 2x makes me sweat.
 

Burren

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The short answer is yes, I was. The more I run the numbers the more ridiculous that looks. If I want a standalone house that's the price range for an hour commute. I backed up, did some thinking on what I actually want in a place and told the realtor if she can find the nice modern layout with a great master bedroom/bathroom/huge closet in any home style from condo to town house to standalone house I'll consider it. I really don't want condo or townhouse but if it keeps the commute down... One thing I think about a condo is I'd be closer to work AND I'd be able to build a shitload of equity in it fast, probably even handle a 15 year mortgage... That makes the most sense but it's a balance between having a house I actually want. I have a new list of houses farther away to look at. The cool thing is the commute might not be terrible because there's an express train that goes farther out.

We've been looking at $700k on $350k incomes. I can't fathom how you can justify that price on a $120k income. Mortgage + taxes (insane in Houston; 2.75%) + insurance is nearly $4,500/mo. And we have zero debt as well, which is pretty un-American. I think I would have a nervous breakdown doing what you are.
 

Khane

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600k house on 120k salary is house poor territory. I'm honestly surprised that even got pre-approved.
 

GuardianX

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Yeah, I mean even on the low end you are talking ~50% of your income going to P+I+Escrow.

1589480610079.png


1589478342929.png
 
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