Home buying thread

Jysin

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The pessimist in me would probably choose to do the 30 year and make the extra pyaments to pay it off early vs 15 year and being forced to pay the higher payment. Worst case scenario with a job loss, you have a much lower payment responsibility on the 30 year note vs the risk of foreclosure on a higher 15 year payment.
 

Cad

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What am I looking for in a Realtor? Seems like the minute anyone hears I'm house shopping they have "the best Realtor" that I have to use. From what I can tell, basically the Realtor is going to pull the MLS listing sheets I want, then show me the houses, then submit the offers I want to put in. I suppose they can help guide what is the right price etc. But I feel like, it would be a mistake to ask someone else what the right price is vs doing the research myself on one of the largest purchases in my lifetime.

It seems like I can look at selling history in the area, look at the neighborhood etc and determine if I want to live there and guess how the resale value will be just like they can. I'm a very nomadic shopper, someone offering input when not asked drives me insane. I don't need someone to say, oh look at this nice granite counter tops, they were done to help sell the house. All that tells me is, oh good, I'm paying the mark up on someone elses granite they've chosen.

So with that being said, so far the only thing I can see me swaying me to one realtor over another is the one by my bank, gives cash back supposedly. Like $1500 on the close, is this a standard practice, could I find someone giving back more etc?

I feel like hiring a house inspector, bringing in my uncle who is a plumber and has done all the plumbing for my family/business, my contractor who built my business, and my electrician in before I submit an offer will be much more valuable than any Realtor can ever give me in terms of value.
Depends if you are familiar with the area. If you know the area and what you want, the realtor does basically nothing for you. If you don't know the area and don't know where to look for your demo/price range/school needs, realtor might be able to help you.

Personally I would just deal directly with the listing agents of whatever properties you're interested in and bargain their 6% down into closing rebates.
 

Palum

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Realtors who haven't been around an area for decades seem to be fairly worthless regardless of other qualifications. Knowing how the area has developed and changed and understanding the communities is about the only thing a realtor can do for you that you may not be able to get yourself.

That said, a good realtor can cover endless hours of research and legwork that you may not have the ability to if you have time constraints or the housing market is exceptionally active in the area. Just have to be careful they do what you say. Suffice it to say I'm a more shrewd negotiator than most and I don't get emotional over a pile of wood and gypsum and concrete so I had to put my foot down when the 'certified negotiators' thought I was crazy to counter yet again. The entire industry seems a little too 'feel good about each other' from that perspective. As if being 'reasonable' is always compromising even when all the facts are on your side...
 

opiate82

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I had to put my foot down when the 'certified negotiators' thought I was crazy to counter yet again. The entire industry seems a little too 'feel good about each other' from that perspective. As if being 'reasonable' is always compromising even when all the facts are on your side...
Problem is when you are a buyer your realtor gets paid more the more money you spend. Of course they aren't going to recommend you double-counter and/or have demands. Seems like a conflict of interest to me but who am I to criticize or question the necessity of the real estate agent industry, after all, I'm just some dude with access to the internet.
 

koljec_sl

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Realtors who haven't been around an area for decades seem to be fairly worthless regardless of other qualifications. Knowing how the area has developed and changed and understanding the communities is about the only thing a realtor can do for you that you may not be able to get yourself.

That said, a good realtor can cover endless hours of research and legwork that you may not have the ability to if you have time constraints or the housing market is exceptionally active in the area. Just have to be careful they do what you say. Suffice it to say I'm a more shrewd negotiator than most and I don't get emotional over a pile of wood and gypsum and concrete so I had to put my foot down when the 'certified negotiators' thought I was crazy to counter yet again. The entire industry seems a little too 'feel good about each other' from that perspective. As if being 'reasonable' is always compromising even when all the facts are on your side...
Realtors want fast and easy; buyers and sellers often want to min-max. If you are buying or selling, I think the best thing you can do is be up-front, direct, and certain about what you want and why.
 

Arative

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What do you mean you paid it up front? Was there a benefit to doing that? Why not use that to lower your principle to get you closer to eliminating your PMI altogether and lower your interest payments (as a whole over the life of the loan) as well?
We bought a $300k house and put 5% down. We didn't have the downpayment to put 20% down but we had enough to pay $7k up front to buy out the PMI. Since its typically about 10 years to reach 80% LTV ration, we would have paid around $17k in PMI over that 10 years, so we saved ourselves about $10k.
 

Khane

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We bought a $300k house and put 5% down. We didn't have the downpayment to put 20% down but we had enough to pay $7k up front to buy out the PMI. Since its typically about 10 years to reach 80% LTV ration, we would have paid around $17k in PMI over that 10 years, so we saved ourselves about $10k.
Sounds like a scam. If you had put that extra $7k as a down payment your PMI would have dropped to about $13.5k until 80% LTV was hit and you would have saved yourself ~$5k in interest assuming a 4% interest rate.

If they sold it to you as "you'll save yourself $10k" they were full of shit. You still saved yourself a bit of money, but only about $1k, and that's if you never make an early payment. A few early payments and you've either broken even or lost money. How are they still allowed to pull nonsense like this on consumers? Rustles me pretty good.
 

Cad

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Sounds like a scam. If you had put that extra $7k as a down payment your PMI would have dropped to about $13.5k until 80% LTV was hit and you would have saved yourself ~$5k in interest assuming a 4% interest rate.

If they sold it to you as "you'll save yourself $10k" they were full of shit. You still saved yourself a bit of money, but only about $1k, and that's if you never make an early payment. A few early payments and you've either broken even or lost money. How are they still allowed to pull nonsense like this on consumers? Rustles me pretty good.
Also what if you sell next year? Do you get your 7k back?
 

Jysin

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Fucking astounding people fail so hard at math when it is typically one of the biggest purchases of one's life!

Scary.

Sorry Arative. Loads of people do shit like this every damn day.
 

Khane

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Fucking astounding people fail so hard at math when it is typically one of the biggest purchases of one's life!

Scary.

Sorry Arative. Loads of people do shit like this every damn day.
It isn't really his fault. People don't realize mortgage brokers aren't bankers or financial experts. They are salesman, plain and simple. Most of them have no background in finance from what I've seen.

But most consumers are unwitting victims because they believe that they are financial experts with at least some of the customers best interests in mind. When someone is pretending to "break down the numbers" and give you a "transparent" view to "save you money in the long run" you should be able to have at least a little faith they aren't scamming you. This industry is supposed to be being regulated. The amount of paperwork I had to submit and go through for my re-fi was ridiculous. But that's all it is, more paperwork that doesn't protect consumers at all. It just prevents banks from reselling obviously terrible loans. It protects the other banks, not the people.
 

koljec_sl

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Fucking astounding people fail so hard at math
Nothing astounding about it. Most people stink at math and they are going to be overwhelmed by dishonest rehearsed people who have a couple of calculations and some sales pitches ready to go.

For things like homes and cars you have to work out the numbers for a few scenarios before the financing guy. Write it all down if you need to. Bring that piece of paper out when he starts talking and stick to it. He will shut up. Chances are he's no math expert either, but he knows how tweaking a percentage or two here or there is good for him.

But be correct with your own math for chrissake. If you're not, you'll just look dumb, and that will be used against you.
 

Khane

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It's his fault, game, job, whatever. When he puts you in a worse position to improve his own, you can call him whatever you want.
I was saying it's not really Arative's fault as the consumer. The mortgage broker who sold him that line is a scumbag.
 

Joeboo

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The pessimist in me would probably choose to do the 30 year and make the extra pyaments to pay it off early vs 15 year and being forced to pay the higher payment. Worst case scenario with a job loss, you have a much lower payment responsibility on the 30 year note vs the risk of foreclosure on a higher 15 year payment.
That is exactly the strategy that my wife and I are going with. 30 year loan, and we make enough extra payments that it could be paid off in ~18 or so years from what we figure. But last fall my wife quit her job and was out of work for 4 months. Was nice to be able to scale that back to the minimum payments for those 4 months so that we didn't have to dip into savings to pay the mortgage(if it were a 15-year). I think it's a solid strategy as long as you stick to the plan. Some people aren't disciplined enough to keep paying extra unless they are forced to(15 yr loan higher payment), to make that work.
 

Khane

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That is exactly the strategy that my wife and I are going with. 30 year loan, and we make enough extra payments that it could be paid off in ~18 or so years from what we figure. But last fall my wife quit her job and was out of work for 4 months. Was nice to be able to scale that back to the minimum payments for those 4 months so that we didn't have to dip into savings to pay the mortgage(if it were a 15-year). I think it's a solid strategy as long as you stick to the plan. Some people aren't disciplined enough to keep paying extra unless they are forced to(15 yr loan higher payment), to make that work.
It's an entirely reasonable plan and makes a lot of sense. The only problem is people tend to look at a 15yr mortgage on a house and say "I can't afford that house" and look at the 30yr and say "I can afford that house" on the same exact house. The 30 yr mortgage ends up costing way more money so that line of thinking is completely irrational.

I try to tell some of my friends who have yet to buy a house and are now shopping for one that if you can't afford a 15yr for a particular house then you just cannot afford that house. Find a house you can afford the 15yr loan on and if you want, take out a 30yr and make the extra payments. This gives them the job loss safety net you're talking about.

They don't listen to me though. They inevitably fall in love with a house that will come close to making them "house poor" and take out a 30yr mortgage they can barely afford.
 

Asshat Brando

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Why not just take it a step further and say if you can't pay cash for a house then you can't afford the house? There's a reason the 15yr has one of the lowest use rates in lending in that it's unrealistic for a lot of housing markets if you're going to be able to afford something that would be commensurate with what you could rent at the same payment taking into account taxes. So you can sit up in your Ivory Tower of personal mortgage finance and proclaim the best way that people should finance homes but that's not reality.

I had two $2.0mm deals that I booked already this week and both are taking 7/1 ARM Interest Only deals, one of them is putting down $750k and another one is putting down $500k on these purchases. Neither could probably qualify for a 15yr loan if they were so inclined, obviously they can't afford the house though right? But I digress....

As far as Arative, I can't recall a single time over 15 years now in this business of a buyer themselves taking out the PMI. It's not a scam in that most people are monthly payment restricted and PMI can be very expensive, with that said it is a bit odd.
 

opiate82

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I mean, I get what you are saying, there is a lot of ground between 15 years and 30 years in which there are perfectly affordable houses and mortgages.

But he is right in that a lot of people stretch themselves incredibly thin trying to afford the max house they can at 30 years. Especially since a ton of people still advise new home buyers to "buy the max you can afford now, real estate only goes up!" Yeah, my house still isn't worth what I paid for it 5 years ago now. But thankfully I didn't max myself out trying to buy it.

And he is also right that a lot of people with intentions of paying extra towards principle aren't disciplined enough to do so (even if they think they are), so if they can afford the 15 they should do so.
 

Picasso3

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It's a good rule of thumb for a buffer. A 7/1 arm with 750k down doesn't need a rule of thumb.
 

Khane

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Why not just take it a step further and say if you can't pay cash for a house then you can't afford the house? There's a reason the 15yr has one of the lowest use rates in lending in that it's unrealistic for a lot of housing markets if you're going to be able to afford something that would be commensurate with what you could rent at the same payment taking into account taxes. So you can sit up in your Ivory Tower of personal mortgage finance and proclaim the best way that people should finance homes but that's not reality.

I had two $2.0mm deals that I booked already this week and both are taking 7/1 ARM Interest Only deals, one of them is putting down $750k and another one is putting down $500k on these purchases. Neither could probably qualify for a 15yr loan if they were so inclined, obviously they can't afford the house though right? But I digress....

As far as Arative, I can't recall a single time over 15 years now in this business of a buyer themselves taking out the PMI. It's not a scam in that most people are monthly payment restricted and PMI can be very expensive, with that said it is a bit odd.
Opiate explained what I was saying. And your examples are a bit silly because people with that kind of money are probably investing the remaining liquidity and feel they can get a better return and are obviously in a different league when it comes to finances. Let's not compare the top 1% of Americans to the rest of us when it comes to sound home purchasing practices.