Home Improvement

Eomer

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Looks like a return air grille. Depending on how your house is ducted, where the furnace is located and so on, that grille is probably there to allow return air to migrate back to your furnace. Or even if you don't have a furnace, it's there to allow free circulation of air throughout your house. I doubt it has anything to do with your fireplace. And what Big Ern said about having flammable materials in return air spaces/plenums.
 

Deathwing

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we use baseboard heating
And you can see from the second pick the bottom part is blocked off. How much air can be really moving through there?

I've taken a peak in the adjacent room that shares the same joist space and there's all sorts of electrical wiring. I guess I won't block it off completely, still gotta fit something in there to mount a wall plate.
 

Erronius

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The red arrows are correct in direction, almost placement too. If we use baseboard heating, do we have to worry about that fire code then? I'm planning on running it through the vent, then sideways over to another room which has suspended ceiling, then under the joists from there.

Thanks for the informative resposne.
Yes. Romex or coax, you have to try running directly across joist pockets that are cold air returns, never along the length or any other shenanigans. Installing boxes for light/switches in a cold air return is a no-no as well. With romex though, while there might be plenum rated romex somewhere I've never seen any. This really only means that you can't just buy a pricier romex and start running it through plenums, just like you aren't supposed to run romex over commercial suspended ceilings with the "open" cold air returns (can't remember term atm).

When you say "through" the vent, as long as you mean "across" or perpendicular to it, in one side and out the other, then you'll be fine. Now, if when you say "through" you mean run along the length of the duct /plenum/joist pocket (for whatever distance) then by code that's not kosher. Their idea was to limit how much cable was inside a plenum at any one time, since the reasoning was that they couldn't prevent it completely. This might seem kind of ticky-tac, but it allows you to run through a cold air return when you can't avoid it or go around, while preventing people from abusing cold air returns and running tons of wire through them.
 

lurkingdirk

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I must confess to running power in a cold air return in my current house. I needed additional power to a bathroom (three bathrooms, all receptacles AND lights on one 15 amp breaker? How stupid is that?). It ended up being three wires, all pulled tight, stapled at the top and bottom. I can't see there ever being a problem.
 

Deathwing

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I think I am confused about the fire code thing. How are cat5e cables a fire/toxic fume hazard if run parallel inside a joist pocket? I have baseboard heating, so at most, that vent was allowing air from the top level into the joist pocket. The bottom grate is sealed off, should it not be? The wires themselves don't cause any heat. Now, if this was a cold air return for a furnace, I could see that.

What I'm planning on doing is running cat5e cable from the TV down into the top portion of the grate. From there it go sideways(right in the picture with the red arrows) along the joist pocket until it's in a room with suspended ceiling. Then it will run mostly perpendicular under the joists(but above the ceiling tiles) until it reaches a closet with the patch panel.
 

Erronius

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(three bathrooms, all receptacles AND lights on one 15 amp breaker? How stupid is that?).
Depending on when it was built/wired, that could have easily been par for the course at the time.

I must confess to running power in a cold air return in my current house. I needed additional power to a bathroom...

...It ended up being three wires, all pulled tight, stapled at the top and bottom. I can't see there ever being a problem.
Vertically, you mean, up through a cold air return?

The problem there is the flammability of the cable, potentially spreading through a house via those cables. Not to mention the toxic fumes released by the burning cable that are in part of your air handling system. But instead of just a short run of cable running through it (preferably with fire caulking at penetrations I'd suppose but that's prob somewhat recent) you now have much, MUCH more cable in that run and if you are running vertically between floors then that's an even bigger issue. Now it's 'plenum' + 'riser', and they have additional 'riser' ratings as well.
 

Erronius

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But he ain't got no duct. It's just a hole through the floor. No central hvac.
He has no central air? When I went back and looked earlier I don't see him say that, anywhere. AFAIK he could have two random grates from a pre-existing heat circulator AND central air. I have no idea. My house has central air AND a heat system built into the fireplace so that isn't an either/or. The only thing I saw when I went back (because I kept reading his posts thinking I was being trolled) was one spot where he talks as if he is planning on installing baseboard heat, and later he then talks as if baseboard heat is already installed. So I have no idea WTF is going on, and even you were addressing the paucity of information earlier yourself so I wouldn't think that would be a leap for you.

Hell, I've worked on houses with baseboard heating and central air for A/C, and a lot of homes go through remodels where shit is mishmashed together. For all I know he heats rocks in a fire and spreads them around his house to strategic locations with fire tongs.

If we use baseboard heating
I have baseboard heating
Bottom line, worry about plenums if you want; if there are no plenums, then there is no issue. But I can't begin to tell anyone if there are because it isn't my house and I haven't seen it stated yet how the house is heated/cooled to begin with. As far as code goes, I don't want to split hairs over it - I don't care. I brought it up as something to consider, not as an absolute or as something to get into an argument over. If people want to argue and do stuff counter to code, knock yourselves out. I just wanted to bring it up because most homeowners don't know anything about codes or common trade practices, past that I give no fucks.

The wires themselves don't cause any heat.
They do (well I^2*R losses do) but I don't feel like arguing about it, really.
 

Deathwing

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Sorry, I have the habit of writing posts from my point of view and making assumptions others couldn't know. The "if then" in that first quote is just a way I talk. It wasn't meant as "if we eventually add baseboard heating, this isn't a problem, right?". Anyway, to simplify:

Currently have baseboard heating.
No AC, not even window units.
Grate in the floor gives access to joist space.
Room with grate in ceiling has a fireplace that's not in use. Not even sure when it was used last.

Don't worry about splitting hairs with me, I won't take offense to that. I'm engineer, I do that for a living. If me running cat5e through the aforementioned context has even the slightest problem, I want to know. That's whole point of my post. You know things I don't, so I'm probably (still)forgetting to mention important details. I'm sorry that takes a few back and forths.

Anyway, I think I got the situation in hand. Thanks for the input.
 

lurkingdirk

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Thanks, Erronius, good and informative post.
To be honest, coming up the air return was the most direct route to the bathrooms, so there's no extra length of cable. I see what you're saying about the flammability of the cable, the gasses, and the air handling system. For anything involving an outlet, I tend to over do it on the wire I use. I pay to get the higher grade wire, even if I'm not putting the large amp breakers on the line. For example, on a 15 amp circuit, I'll run 12 gauge wiring. That allows for longer runs, if need be, without dropping amps, and it virtually eliminates ANY worries about the wires getting hot.
 

Joeboo

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Probably not a big deal to most, but I am extremely useless when it comes to projects around the house. I can build a PC with my eyes closed but put a tool in my hand and I'm generally inept...

So I just spent my evening doing this:
rrr_img_58360.jpg


Roughly 4 hours to completely disassemble and reassemble our washing machine. All due to a goddamn sock that was lodged in the tube that feeds the water into the main cylinder.

Water had been pouring out of the detergent bin on the front of our washer off and on for a few weeks, just randomly. Was hard to recreate when you wanted to, but would do it randomly.

Finally found some answers online of what it might be, something stuck in the water hose inside the machine. Yep, shredded up sock.

That whole experience fucking sucked. From the crazy wire/spring clamp thingy that holds the rubber seal in place around the door that was a bitch to get back on, to the random hex-screws of varying sizes that hold the washer together. Absolutely nothing was a phillips or a flathead screw, it was all weird hex screws and random fucking bolts.

Ended up smelling like a sewer when I was done from all the nasty internal water in the hoses that sprayed all over me when I pulled them off. (went ahead and cleaned out the drain too while I was in there and everything was open)

About halfway through I was really wishing I had just spent $500 on a new washer, but it ended up coming out alright. Sucks trying to open stuff, and take things apart with no directions, just having to google random videos and articles on the web and hoping your machine has it's clamps/bolts/screws in the same place as the instructions you just watched.
 

OneofOne

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Haha nice man. I too find videos off google helpful - take any help where you can!
 

Erronius

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Deathwing: I apologize if I was getting cranky. Don't worry about air returns then.

To be honest, coming up the air return was the most direct route to the bathrooms, so there's no extra length of cable. I see what you're saying about the flammability of the cable, the gasses, and the air handling system. For anything involving an outlet, I tend to over do it on the wire I use. I pay to get the higher grade wire, even if I'm not putting the large amp breakers on the line. For example, on a 15 amp circuit, I'll run 12 gauge wiring. That allows for longer runs, if need be, without dropping amps, and it virtually eliminates ANY worries about the wires getting hot.
Outside of residential, the NFPA can be a lot more strict and stuff like romex is often never used. Not to mention that they can be hardasses with regards to cables in plenums. Electricians used to run cabling more freely in commercial plenums but it caused a lot of issues so they cracked down on it. And don't labor under the misconception that you only have to worry about a potential fire starting IN a plenum (and that upsizing to a larger gauge will prevent any issue); the nature of plenums means that fire can be drawn into a plenum or provide a path for the fire to spread (thanks, air!), and wiring in a plenum can give a fire looking to spread elsewhere the fuel it needs to spread further. In fact it's pretty unlikely that a fire will start along the length of a cable, but rather that it will start elsewhere (junction box/connections) and then spread TO a plenum (possibly along the length of cable itself). Then it will act like a chimney flue, which when you think about it is a Bad Thing. Deathwing was right in a sense when he touched on the idea that wiring isn't likely to spontaneously burst into flame (possible but unlikely), the true danger is a small fire/flame reaching a plenum and then being fed by copious air and ready fuel (multiple cable sheathing in your case).

I've seen people do what you did a ton; in fact I did it myself ~15 years ago when I first started out at the direction of a master electrician who had always done it himself. Everyone knows that homeowners do it, because homeowners are less likely to try fishing wires up walls or, heaven forbid, start cutting into drywall. So don't take it as me trying to berate people, I'm 'just saying'.
tongue.png


A History of Plenum Cable Fire Safety Issues
 

Eomer

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Plenums in general are very, very touchy on what you can put in them. It's especially a pain in the ass in commercial projects with dropped T-bar ceilings, because often times the entire ceiling space is considered a return air plenum, and the plumbers/electricians can't put a damn thing in there that's combustible. But on the other hand, it makes good sense not to for the reasons Big Ern just mentioned.
 

lurkingdirk

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Erronius, I didn't see you as being cranky or anything. You provided some really good and informative posts. I came back at it because I wanted to know what you thought of what I had done. now I know.

The house I own was in a desperate state of disorder when I bought it five years ago. It was a crack house, and they had cooked meth in it. There was a year's worth of garbage in the garage. I've put new drywall in most of it, and I don't mind going back in to fish wires or whatever. I want to do things right. And I want everything to be up to code. Now you're making me think maybe I should go back in and redirect the wires outside the return air vent. It's just three wires.

Meh, add it to the list. If I can rebuild a fireplace completely up to code, I can pull wire completely up to code.
 

Intrinsic

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Deathwing, was just reading your post in Tech Forum, did you finish up running the cable through your house? I started to do that when we moved in, with the intent to follow the coax runs with a fish but got basically nowhere. At one point I had the model number of the wall box the coax was coming out of and it was pretty tight, basically only enough space to pass the one run through. I need something to do other than drink on the weekends and want to revisit this project... while drinking.
 

Vinen

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You guys still have coax in your houses?
Still common in new houses.
My house was gut renovated prior to us purchasing it and all rooms have coax running up from the basement.
The majority of people out there still have cable boxes.

Aside from this, I have a contractor coming in to replace all windows in my house. Came out to just north of 11 grand to do 20 windows with top of the line Harvey Acoustic Windows (STC 44). Around 550 installed per window... Winter is totally the best time to replace windows pricewise...
 

lurkingdirk

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Dang fun way to spend 11 grand, isn't it? Not like you'd rather use that money to travel, or something.

Home owning is a fun thing. Sometimes.

But it was my understanding that coax is going the way of the dodo. I don't have an inch of it in my house, and I know companies like AT&T really prefer to work with data cable instead. A lot less signal droppage when you can go digital, and not analog.