Is the MMO Market imploding?

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
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so you didn't read any of it but thought you'd just post and make yourself look like a dick head. congrats, you succeeded!
Day late and a dollar short but thanks anyway. Feel free to take your hands away from the keyboard and put them back on whatever dick you were sucking prior to calling me names in a shitty thread no one cares about.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
Day late and a dollar short but thanks anyway. Feel free to take your hands away from the keyboard and put them back on whatever dick you were sucking prior to calling me names in a shitty thread no one cares about.
a shitty thread that no one cares about yet one that you keep posting in. make yourself look more like a fuck stick why don't you?
 

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,001
713
a shitty thread that no one cares about yet one that you keep posting in. make yourself look more like a fuck stick why don't you?
Is a fuck stick a bad thing to look like? I'm not sure if you are attempting to insult me or combining the work fuck with the first item that pops into your head. Good job fuck bucket.
 

kudos

<Banned>
2,363
695
Is a fuck stick a bad thing to look like? I'm not sure if you are attempting to insult me or combining the work fuck with the first item that pops into your head. Good job fuck bucket.
A fuck stick is a penis. He is calling you a dick. Which I agree with.
 

Zuuljin

Bronze Knight of the Realm
143
0
Yea, I was speculating on that before I even googled this stuff. Using whales to prop up your entire business isn't that rare.
Wired had anarticleabout this stuff many years ago (2008) explaining basically that. Its a good read about the freemium market, if you have time.


Article_sl said:
But for digital products, this ratio of free to paid is reversed. A typical online site follows the 1 Percent Rule ? 1 percent of users support all the rest. In the freemium model, that means for every user who pays for the premium version of the site, 99 others get the basic free version. The reason this works is that the cost of serving the 99 percent is close enough to zero to call it nothing.
 

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,001
713
A fuck stick is a penis. He is calling you a dick. Which I agree with.
Dicks fuck both pussies and assholes - which you both are - so fuck both of you
smile.png
.
 

Warrik

Potato del Grande
<Donor>
1,297
-637
Modern MMO's are far more accessible which has a direct impact longevity. Players reach end game and level cap way too fast. The first batch of MMO's required massive amounts of time to reach either....and while time-sinks, hell levels, corpse runs, extremely limited fast travel and death penalties all suck, what they gave those games was longevity and difficulty. It took a long time to do a lot of things. But in fixing what was terrible about all those mechanics, the pendulum swung too far wide in the other direction. Players now burn through content at a rate much faster than companies can keep pace with.

Instancing has also been a blessing and curse. One one hand, spawn camping and racing SUCKS, but instancing lost a bit of that 'Massively' magic and cut groups of players off from the rest of the world.

For a long time Blizzard walked this balance with WoW and built a sub base that was unimaginable, but over time, the game began to take shortcuts and started shifting the direction of the game that had longer term effects on longevity (but continued having immediate big subscriber growth), impacting both the games economy, class balance, and itemization in ways that would be hard to repair but the effects of which would manifest slowly over time. Looking at WoW during Vanilla/BC and then again at Cata/Mists, you can clearly see the internal vision shift in many areas of the game. Blizzard redefined the MMO genre and re-wrote the rule book for what a successful and well built next-gen title should look like, but my opinion is that they began to lose their way a bit and what the game has evolved into has become challenging for the company to keep pace with even in the case of casual gamers. The content consumption churn is just too fast.

This shouldn't be taken as a sleight against WoW or the team that built and maintain it. WoW is a good game, and what Blizzard did was damn hard. That doesn't mean there are not lessons learned that we can reflect on and understand not only what made the game the success it is, but also understand some of the areas where things went a bit sideways and mis-steps were made.

Has the MMORPG genre peaked? Yes and No. Its evolved. There is still a lot of money being made from it, and it certainly isn't going away any time soon. That being said, the modern MMORPG player would not be a fan of the classic MMORPG. That type of game has died. The model that Everquest and UO were built on is dead, and in some ways, the model that WoW was built on is dying now.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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7,889
That being said, the modern MMORPG player would not be a fan of the classic MMORPG. That type of game has died. The model that Everquest and UO were built on is dead, and in some ways, the model that WoW was built on is dying now.
I'm still waiting for one person who makes this assertion to show some data supporting it. There has not been an MMORPG launched with these gameplay mechanics since EverQuest in 1999, except Vanuard, which really isn't a good case (disastrous launch coupled with a buggy unfinished product).

It's an argument based on pretty much nothing.

You can't go around saying 'consumers prefer MegaCola to Coke' if an unbastardized version of Coke hasn't existed in a decade, and in 2004, Coke (and all competitors) changed their recipes to taste more like MegaCola.

I'd love to see a smaller developer actually release a game with certain mechanics from early MMOs. Large uninstanced worlds that were truly frightening and punishing of mistakes. Character advancement should be difficult, rare, and meaningful. Player interdependence should be critical for both convenience actions and the completion of the most demanding content. I guarantee you the game will sell. The hardcore (and the wannabes) will always flock to the hardcore game, if it exists. Their pride will trump flashy convenience games.

A man can dream...
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
Said it in the EQN thread a few times but kickstarter is the only hope for that. As soon as you have investors that are trying to make a profit first and not just a good game, it wont be what you are looking for. So kickstarter, and hope the niche for your game is as big as the wing commander niche Roberts is using to make the game he could fund himself but doesnt want to.

Even IF some interest group inside SOE gets a project like that running like some people here are hoping, it'll be inside the corporate structure of SOE. Consider the implications for a moment. If it's shit and fails to capture the essence of the old games it'll be left alone - so that's your best hope but also means you better be happy with the base game plus some intern work. If it is successful, it'll be expanded to bring more profit and that will inevitably lead to changes aimed at more market share - a death knell for the game you want.
 

zombiewizardhawk

Potato del Grande
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What i'm curious about is; How many of the people claiming EQ/UO style MMO's wouldn't succeed today are the same people praising the Dark Souls games for being hard and 'different' from modern games/etc.?
 

Mellent_sl

shitlord
180
0
What i'm curious about is; How many of the people claiming EQ/UO style MMO's wouldn't succeed today are the same people praising the Dark Souls games for being hard and 'different' from modern games/etc.?
EQ/UO aren't difficult for the same reasons as Dark Souls is. Dark Souls is difficult but it's not as if it almost totally lacks direction or requires extreme time commitments like EQ especially does.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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I'm still waiting for one person who makes this assertion to show some data supporting it. There has not been an MMORPG launched with these gameplay mechanics since EverQuest in 1999, except Vanuard, which really isn't a good case (disastrous launch coupled with a buggy unfinished product).

It's an argument based on pretty much nothing.

You can't go around saying 'consumers prefer MegaCola to Coke' if an unbastardized version of Coke hasn't existed in a decade, and in 2004, Coke (and all competitors) changed their recipes to taste more like MegaCola.

I'd love to see a smaller developer actually release a game with certain mechanics from early MMOs. Large uninstanced worlds that were truly frightening and punishing of mistakes. Character advancement should be difficult, rare, and meaningful. Player interdependence should be critical for both convenience actions and the completion of the most demanding content. I guarantee you the game will sell. The hardcore (and the wannabes) will always flock to the hardcore game, if it exists. Their pride will trump flashy convenience games.

A man can dream...
tons of indie mmos?
Darkfalls and the like? are you just pretending these games don't exist, while ASKING for these games to exist and how you would love to see them get made?

Also, go look at the GW2 development through betas. it started without hearts, or vistas/etc. And when players were dropped into the world without any direction. they were totally lost. so they added hearts to give people way points, to act as guides through a zone.
Granted I have debated on if the hearts were a good idea. probably not imho. as they ended up as a crutch. Post release all we heard was people "completing" a zone, and being under leveled, because they thought the hearts were the entirety of the content. they ended up with 30% of their content in heart form and clearly marked. and a good 50% of it hidden in Dynamic events, or player interaction with the environment, via subtle or not so subtle clues. people in this very forum, all cried about lack of content, while rushing to 80 and doing hearts only. people love to talk on forums, but get in game, and its "rush to max level in 7 days."
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Isn't Darkfall a PVP MMO? Not interested. If there are PVE MMOs out there with meaningful death and an open world, please direct me to them.

hmm found an article when you post prompted me to do google search on MMOs that may not be for the faint of heart. Came up with this:

http://www.mmo-troll.com/hypocrisy-o...-in-the-world/

Interesting read of an idiot's opinion. As someone that is pretty current on the genre, I hadn't even heard of this game. Marketing for it must have been pathetic. I suspect the author of that article never played EQ in its classic era, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and do some research. Its free to play, so the only loss will be my time.

Anyone have any experience with Wizardry Online?
 

Caliane

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wherein lies the problem. in one breath you suggest smaller studios should make these games. but then refuse to even look at anything that is not AAAAAAAA mmo with a shit ton of publisher backing.

(of course many of those games also have other glaring problems. Par for course, much of those design choices are pretty questionable. and if devs think those design choices are good. Many of their other ideas are shit as well. then of course smaller budgets to get shit done with)
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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7,889
wherein lies the problem. in one breath you suggest smaller studios should make these games. but then refuse to even look at anything that is not AAAAAAAA mmo with a shit ton of publisher backing.
what the hell are you talking about? Where did i say i needed AAA quality? I believe i asked you to point me at any MMOs with similar mechanics to EQ... your absurd suggestion was an FFA loot PVPMMO with action combat...

Still looking into Wizardry Online, but im not sure im interested in permadeath or FFA loot PVP in this game either.
 

Cybsled

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There have been plenty of EQ1/UOish MMOs since they came on the scene and virtually all of them have been Asian MMOs.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
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0
If you're only wanting games that JUST LIKE EQ, well, it doesn't exist, and never will, because making the exact same game again is dumb. If you want multiplayer games that are less themepark to various degrees, that aren't WoW clones, then here's a list:

-Wurm Online
-Minecraft (kinda)
-Daggerfall
-Mortal Online
-And ya know...EverQuest is still going (test is even free) / Project 1999 / (you can even join/create a progression guild)
-As well as Ultima Online / various free shards
-Vanguard is still kicking along
-SWG emu
-FFXI
-ArcheAge ("sandpark"-ish or something)

There's also some interesting projects "in the works" (and I'm sure there's tons more):
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Neo's Land
-Pathfinder Online
-Camelot Unchained
-Citadel of Sorcery

The thing is though, there's that unwritten thing people want when they claim they want EverQuest again - they also want it with high production values and they want it to be new and they want their niche game to be played by everyone and have everyone excited about it. It's just unrealistic and dumb to think that'll happen outside of daydreaming (which is fine, it's fun to talk about that stuff). But noone should realistically expect the type of game many of us talk about wanting to ever be "a hit" that's a super perfect game from some indie / kickstarter shop.

The point is there IS variety in the market, but you have to live with uglier graphics, smaller communities, more bugs, and no big hype train.

Edit: Regarding Asian MMOs, no idea. But I "hear about" all kinds of various grindy MMOs from there. Aion and Lineage are the big names I hear, not that I've played them.