Justice for Zimmerman
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hodj
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It was a reasonable assumption to make, a year and a half ago, because of the media ridiculousness over the trial, but at this point its really not, as you said.
That's the issue. It seems to me that no one who has followed and repeatedly posted in this thread can continue to make this claim, without tacitly admitting their goal was to goad a reaction out of others. We've literally argued the fine points of how the confrontation began, between the two threads, down to a subatomic level. Shit is no longer necessary in the conversation, and can only lead to more shitting up the thread with race arguments and whatnot, when the thread is about the merits of the evidence presented, and the day to day of the trial. The trial isn't on over the weekend, so things will get off track a bit, but if someone is going to come in here and say that Zimmerman intentionally followed Martin and provoked a confrontation, at this point, with the entire prosecution's evidence box on the table and none of it supporting said conclusion, they either need to put up, or shut up, because all they're doing is shitting up the thread with nonsense that isn't relevant any more.
Professor also pretty well nailed it.
I basically read this as you admitting you only made the claim to gin up a reaction in the thread again. Why can't you contribute without trolling bro?
Why would you post in the thread and make that claim without even being willing to offer up even the remotest of evidence for why you've come to that conclusion, if your intent wasn't to try and troll the thread again?
Just stop making claims that are implicitly race baiting the thread, and CONTRIBUTE. Geez.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Which evidence did you see that caused you to think Zimmerman initiated the confrontation with Martin?
Bows
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From the last thread before Rickshaw, I identified Numbers as a troll, its clear hes still at it.
Chukzombi
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yeah Numbers wants to go back to the RRP. if he had any logical argument he would explain how a man who is home and is being followed by a creepy ass cracker, ends up 2 blocks away dead with the only bruises on his knuckles (other than the hole his chest).
I have a liberal friend and we had a conversation about the trial. He agreed that GZ should not be found guilty of murder but then stated that he would support a manslaughter charge. I asked him why GZ should not be convicted of the murder and he said that he does not believe that GZ shot TM with malice. I argued that its impossible to pull a gun on someone and shoot them as an act of kindness, thus the only way to do it is with malice. If he did not shoot him with malice, then it is because he was acting in self defense, the only logical conclusion I could come up with. He proceeded to change the frame of the argument and brought up the fact that GZ was armed. I asked him why someone should have their freedom taken away because they exercised their right to bare arms, then used those arms legally in self defense. He started to talk at which point I slapped him in the face and told him that his freedom of speech was no longer acceptable because I did not like the outcome of his words.
khalid
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What really irks me is the people that say Zimmerman was at fault because he carried a gun. Yet the gun changed NOTHING until the very end.
Suppose Zimmerman didn't have a gun. Everything would have been the same up until Zimmerman was on the ground getting punched. Then, instead of Zimmerman being able to defend himself, he might have died. Even if he hadn't died, he could have been beaten quite severally, with the message sent that simply for following a stranger in a neighborhood with a history of robberies, you deserve to get beaten possibly to death. And that is the "best" outcome. More likely Zimmerman could either have ended up dead or brain damaged. If anything this case is evidence for how all NH watch should be encouraged to carry firearms.
Also, I keep hearing people say Zimmerman was out "looking for trouble.". As far as we know, that is completely false. He was out looking for OTHER PEOPLE that were looking to cause trouble. Very important distinction. If he was looking to drum up an excuse to kill someone, it is doubtful he would have been on the phone with 911 while doing it.
Suppose Zimmerman didn't have a gun. Everything would have been the same up until Zimmerman was on the ground getting punched. Then, instead of Zimmerman being able to defend himself, he might have died. Even if he hadn't died, he could have been beaten quite severally, with the message sent that simply for following a stranger in a neighborhood with a history of robberies, you deserve to get beaten possibly to death. And that is the "best" outcome. More likely Zimmerman could either have ended up dead or brain damaged. If anything this case is evidence for how all NH watch should be encouraged to carry firearms.
Also, I keep hearing people say Zimmerman was out "looking for trouble.". As far as we know, that is completely false. He was out looking for OTHER PEOPLE that were looking to cause trouble. Very important distinction. If he was looking to drum up an excuse to kill someone, it is doubtful he would have been on the phone with 911 while doing it.
khalid
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Amazing that this assclown troll gets less harassment than Tanoomba, who actually contributes to this thread.
Go back to RSSing reuters to the politics thread pls, at least that is "kinda" contribution I guess heh.
iannis
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The practical responsibility of that right is the genuine and earnest attempt to not kill people just because you can. For your friend maybe Z doesn't meet that bar. Everyone defines it differently, and they'll even define it differently in different situations.
I don't think anyone in the thread really agrees with your friend, but most of us can probably see what he means.
I don't think anyone in the thread really agrees with your friend, but most of us can probably see what he means.
Abefroman
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A lot of people think Zimm followed trayvon. That shit keeps getting said over and over on CNN shows and the pussy anchors refuse to ever call any of these people out for flat out lying. The amount of false shit that is allowed to be said over and over in this trial without one fucking moderator calling the people out on it is disgusting.
i was leaving the convenience store last night, i walked out said excuse me to this black women because she was just standing in my way, as i say excuse me she walks by and goes "mmmmMMMMMMMHMmmmmMMhMMMmm"
loud as hell whats wrong with black people?
then i generously hold the door open for another black individual and receive no thanks, as racist as i am, even fucking mexicans and spanish people who dont speak english at least say fucking thank you, and you wonder why society fucking hates you.
loud as hell whats wrong with black people?
then i generously hold the door open for another black individual and receive no thanks, as racist as i am, even fucking mexicans and spanish people who dont speak english at least say fucking thank you, and you wonder why society fucking hates you.
Chukzombi
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why would they call people on it when they were the ones who made the lie up in the first place?
If you hold that the manslaughter was justified because GZ was acting in self defense, im not sure how you could think that he should do time. A few years ago my friend, same one, was attacked from behind while walking out of a bar. The guy punched him in the back of the head then kicked him in the face when he was on the ground. It broke my friends jaw in two places and he had a serious concussion. If not for bouncers at the bar, whos to say if the guy would have continued to kick him until he suffered life threatening injuries.
I think he likes to argue for some sort of jail term for GZ not based upon the facts of the case, but because he is liberal and that is the stance that they have taken.
Tanoomba
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I had an uncomfortable conversation with my mother yesterday. I brought up the Treyvon Martin killing and she instantly said that Zimmerman "had to go to jail". Because she values my opinion, I was able to calmly explain that I had exactly the same reaction when the case first went to trial, but that the more I heard about what happened the more apparent it became that there was nothing that Zimmerman could actually be proven guilty of, and that as much as we hate that a kid died that night, we shouldn't let that be the deciding factor of whether or not a man should spend the rest of his life in jail. I could tell that it bothered her that her own son had found a reason to "defend" the "bad guy", but at the same time she knew that I wouldn't be feeding her bullshit. It's very hard to tune out emotional responses to cases like this, especially when the media has intentionally skewed how they present what happened.
Having said that, none of us can be sure about what happened that night. It's been mentioned that there was no reason for Zimmerman to start the fight that ended in Martin's death, but as far as I'm concerned there's just as little reason for Martin to start that fight. Sure, he'd been in fights before (shit, evenI'vebeen in fights when I was that age, and I'm as milquetoast as they come) but so had Zimmerman (and that's just what he'd been charged with). Why would Zimmerman attack a kid he was suspicious of? I don't know, why would Martin attack a guy just for being creepy and following him? Several people are quick to assume the fight could very well have ended in Zimmerman's death had he not been carrying a gun... I don't know, even if Martin was a violent youth, I find it extremely hard to believe he would have been willing to kill a stranger with his bare hands just because he had been following him around. But in the end, even who started the fight doesn't matter if we can't prove it, and clearly we can't. Therefore, we just gotta go by what we can prove, and none of the proof we have suggests that Zimmerman broke any laws that night. That's just the way it is, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make us.
Having said that, none of us can be sure about what happened that night. It's been mentioned that there was no reason for Zimmerman to start the fight that ended in Martin's death, but as far as I'm concerned there's just as little reason for Martin to start that fight. Sure, he'd been in fights before (shit, evenI'vebeen in fights when I was that age, and I'm as milquetoast as they come) but so had Zimmerman (and that's just what he'd been charged with). Why would Zimmerman attack a kid he was suspicious of? I don't know, why would Martin attack a guy just for being creepy and following him? Several people are quick to assume the fight could very well have ended in Zimmerman's death had he not been carrying a gun... I don't know, even if Martin was a violent youth, I find it extremely hard to believe he would have been willing to kill a stranger with his bare hands just because he had been following him around. But in the end, even who started the fight doesn't matter if we can't prove it, and clearly we can't. Therefore, we just gotta go by what we can prove, and none of the proof we have suggests that Zimmerman broke any laws that night. That's just the way it is, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make us.
Dude, you suck.
hodj
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Yes, we can, because that's the entire purpose of a trial in the first place. To find out what happened that night to the point that we are either certain Zimmerman commited 2nd degree murder, or to find that we are uncertain enough that he did so that we can reasonbly assume he did not. In either case, we do in fact find out, with reasonable certainty, what happened that night. Thus far, what we've heard and seen, shows us that, for whatever reason, Martin returned to Zimmerman's location and provoked the incident that led to his demise.
Take the race baiting to the shawed thread.
Hey bro im just putting my observation out there, look at the attitudes of the people i came in contact with, i encounter this all day its the norm im from the city people who dont live around these types of "blacks" (ones with no fucking sense) have no idea how trademark probably came off, and how he probably was as a person, a piece of shit.
Im not racist i hate anyone who acts like "these" people i dont care if your skin if fucking blue green yellow, you act like a thug piece of shit you get treated like one.
facts are facts and the black community as a whole really has no idea how to socially interact with people outside their color, they are the most racist type of people.
i have some awesome black friends by the way, they are respectful, have jobs contribute to society dont walk around with the biggest chip on their shoulder acting like the world owes them something you know? good people.
Chukzombi
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Damn tanoomba grow a pair and commit. You cant say we dont know what happened in one breath and then say GZ isnt guilty in another. In a criminal case all that matters is what you can prove. did the prosecution prove that Gz killed TM with any kind of malice? Nope. Does it matter why TM went after GZ when he was already back at his house? Nope.
khalid
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I think what Tanoomba is saying is that we will probably never know exactly how the conversation started between Zimmerman and Trayvon when they met up. We have Travyon's friend saying one thing, Zimmerman saying something else.
What we can be almost certain of is that Trayvon got to his house, then turned around and went to confront Zimmerman. However, there are plenty of ways the conversation could have gone down. If Zimmerman had unloaded a barrage of racial slurs at Martin, Trayvon might have been much more likely to attack him, leading to a claim of self-defense being pretty dodgy. If instead, Zimmerman didn't go out of his way to make the confrontation worse, then self-defense is more justified.
The trial will never prove either scenario one way or the other. However, we can be pretty certain at this point that the prosecution sure doesn't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman kept trying to provoke Martin.
hodj
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