Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Grumpus

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#1
I used to think getting married was a good idea. After a couple long term relationships gone sour (being cheated on, crazy mothers etc.) I can't conceive of a situation where getting married would make me more happy then it would make me perpetually insecure. You are essentially entering into a contract with someone who has a huge law advantage on there side should things go wrong.

My little sister is getting married in two months so I have been thinking about it more then normal and it just seems like men are forced into a death trap here.

Then I read this today.

"Wife of Millionaire Wins "Unprecedented" Case to Overturn Prenup Agreement"
http://ca.shine.yahoo.com/blogs/love...182017682.html

Thoughts?
 
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#2
I could probably rant about this for hours, but having grown up in an environment where my mother/father combined had three vicious divorces by the time I was eighteen, I'm not exactly the biggest proponent of marriage. Let's just say that when I saw Kramer vs Kramer as a teenager I thought it was a light hearted comedy. The law was on the side of my mom/stepmom, and by the end of his 2nd divorce my father was not only emotionally broken, but significantly poorer as well.

Not to be a cynic, but you pay for the big ass wedding, the engagement ring, most likely support her, then pay her ass when she wants to divorce you. Pay to get in, pay to get out..

Not saying it will never happen-- if you live in the US, even moreso the south, and you aren't dating white trash, the expectation is marriage if you want a kid, and I want a kid.. I'll be damned if I go in without a prenup though.

I think a properly written prenup will still hold. In the case of that article, he made promises in his prenup he failed to keep.

Still, the fact that in this day and age, a 40K a year secretary can marry a millionaire, live in the lap of luxury for years, squirt out a few kids, cheat on her husband, then sue for divorce and make off with child custody and enough money to never have to work again is mind boggling.
 

Eomer

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#3
My thought is, if you're getting married, don't be a dick and coerce your wife in to signing a pre-nup 4 fucking days before the wedding. That kind of shit should have been talked about and finalized long before. No shit that's coercive to bust that out 96 hours before the wedding. There was another recent case in Canada with some super wealthy family where the judge decided against the husband because a lot of the prenup was "unconscionable". There was some pretty awful shit in there. On top of that, the husband hired PI's and shit and tried to make his ex appear to be a psycho (which she may well have been, who knows).

Like any contract or agreement, they can be litigated and argued about till the ends of the earth well after they're agreed to. Nothing is iron clad. Should I ever get tricked in to thinking that marriage is a good idea, I'll have to do some research and soul searching myself to determine how I want to approach that issue, because I'd be walking in to pretty much any marriage with far more assets than my potential wife will be, and quite frankly that shit is mine. This isn't the 50's where the woman got married at 19 and never pursued a career in order to be a house wife.

At the end of the day the most important thing is to not marry a greedy and vindictive cunt I guess. Good luck spotting them in advance!
 

Grumpus

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#4
I could probably rant about this for hours, but having grown up in an environment where my mother/father combined had three vicious divorces by the time I was eighteen, I'm not exactly the biggest proponent of marriage. Let's just say that when I saw Kramer vs Kramer as a teenager I thought it was a light hearted comedy. The law was on the side of my mom/stepmom, and by the end of his 2nd divorce my father was not only emotionally broken, but significantly poorer as well.

Not to be a cynic, but you pay for the big ass wedding, the engagement ring, most likely support her, then pay her ass when she wants to divorce you. Pay to get in, pay to get out..
From my immediate family only 2 people are divorced my uncle and one of my grandfathers. I like to think that I have a fairly healthy upbringing when it comes to marriage. My uncles divorce was an ugly one though and the kind of example that scares me the most.

Nicest guy you will ever meet gets married. Has a kid. Wife cheats, takes kid, money. My uncle spends the next 16 years fighting for his daughter and paying his wife every extra cent he has. 0 fucks given by the wife who lives a comfortable life and shows up to court to shut him down while he scrapes by.

It seems like no matter what kind of man or person you are if you get married you are at the mercy of the woman you marry. You can do everything right and get your entire life fucked over on a whim of an emotional creature.

Like any contract or agreement, they can be litigated and argued about till the ends of the earth well after they're agreed to. Nothing is iron clad. Should I ever get tricked in to thinking that marriage is a good idea, I'll have to do some research and soul searching myself to determine how I want to approach that issue, because I'd be walking in to pretty much any marriage with far more assets than my potential wife will be, and quite frankly that shit is mine. This isn't the 50's where the woman got married at 19 and never pursued a career in order to be a house wife.
Marriage without a prenup is still a contract. One that favors the woman in irrational ways in this day and age. If it was a business contract where two parties had money and investment on the line and one of the parties has that kind of sway, no one in their right mind would ever sign it.

But men do because of "love" or whatever.
 

chaos

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#5
I read that article yesterday, I don't really see what is so out of order about it. The guy got her to sign a prenup like 2 days prior to the marriage and he promised all kinds of shit that he never followed through with. So now that he's off banging his secretary or whatever he wanted to leave his wife destitute. The courts were like "Oh hell nah" and T-Doggged it up.
 

Grumpus

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#6
I read that article yesterday, I don't really see what is so out of order about it. The guy got her to sign a prenup like 2 days prior to the marriage and he promised all kinds of shit that he never followed through with. So now that he's off banging his secretary or whatever he wanted to leave his wife destitute. The courts were like "Oh hell nah" and T-Doggged it up.
I agree, the dude is a piece of shit and deserved what he got.

But the precedent that has been set is scary as fuck. Less and less rights for men when it comes to marriage.
 

lindz

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#7
I think so much of one's view on marriage and the success of their own marriage depends on their family history. My parents were high school sweet hearts and still together. My husband's parents were married at 22~ and still together. I grew up with seeing a healthy marriage and that is normal for me so I think it is easier for me to have a similar marriage.

I understand how people can have such negative views on marriage these days when divorce is such a major factor in our society. My own personal belief, based on no fact just feeling, is that as we spend longer as an individual and get married later, marriages are more likely to be difficult. People get more and more set in their habits as they get older and compromise is harder. I was married young and have spent my entire adulthood (as short as it has been so far) growing and changing along with my husband. Our lives and tastes have developed together, we don't have to deal with compromising over annoying shit the other person has done for the last 20 years.

Dunno... I'm super traditional so I strongly believe in marriage, family and all that jazz so I know it colors the way I think.

And pre-nups... entering a marriage with a legal document about your inevitable divorce just seems like you are dooming the whole thing.
 

lindz

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#8
I agree that divorce favors women a ridiculous amount and that needs to change but some perspective....

I dropped out of college to move to another country to be with my husband at 19. We were married, moved to yet another country and I was pregnant relatively soon after. I now have 3 kids (one under a year), never finished college and don't live in my home country or near any relatives. The thought of divorce terrifies me. If my husband was to up and leave, I have nothing. The choices we made together have left me in a vulnerable position as far as "what if he wasn't around". I wouldn't change anything about my life - I love being a stay at home mom, I love my kids and my husband.... but it is scary to think that I have never had a real job and doubt I could make a wage that would even cover daycare.

The whole, female gets the kids and money thing is garbage but I think there does need to be some sort of protection for someone in a position like this, regardless of gender.
 

Grumpus

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#9
My own personal belief, based on no fact just feeling
There it is, right there. The reason why I think marriage is a death trap.

For the same reason you believe strongly in marriage is the reason why it is so dangerous for me. I'm assuming you are a woman. So you have the power to decide your husbands fate in a way if you get divorced. So the weight is off your shoulders as far as choosing to end it is concerned.

If you decide you don't want to be with him anymore you can get a divorce and come out of it potentially in an even better situation. Where your husband would be worse off. On an emotional whim.

If a man wants to end a marriage and move on he has to think. Am I going to lose my house? Half my pay cheque? When will I get to see my kids? Will another man be raising my kids?

When you enter into marriage and the choice to end it favors 1 person over the other something is very very wrong.
 

lindz

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#10
That is a bit naive. I don't know a ton about American divorce law, but it isn't *as* one sided as you are making it out to be.

The person who makes more, regardless of gender, has to think about that.

The world isn't just scumbag women trying to rip of poor unsuspecting men.
 
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#11
At the end of the day the most important thing is to not marry a greedy and vindictive cunt I guess. Good luck spotting them in advance!
This. I've dated quite a few that I thought were the nicest sweetest things on the planet. But when the relationship was ending, and they were "out", they turned into the most ferocious vindictive creatures imaginable. True Jekyll and Hydes.
 

Eomer

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#12
I agree, the dude is a piece of shit and deserved what he got.

But the precedent that has been set is scary as fuck. Less and less rights for men when it comes to marriage.
No precedent has been set with that case, near as I can tell. Prenups get thrown out all the time for similar reasons. As do many other contractual agreements, for a whole variety of reasons.

Grumpus_sl said:
When you enter into marriage and the choice to end it favors 1 person over the other something is very very wrong.
That's because in the past, women did need those protections. And in some cases, they still do. lindz's situation is a good example. She more or less gave up any hope of having a well paying career or even completing her education in order to move for her husband's job and rear his children. It's only fair that if things did end, that he would have to support her and the children since she would be unable to on her own. That was a choice both of them made together. If you don't want to run that risk, don't get married and have kids in the first place, or if you do, don't do it so young that the wife never has a chance at an education or career.
 

Grumpus

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#13
The world isn't just scumbag women trying to rip of poor unsuspecting men.
The world is emotional human beings and where marriage is concerned the more emotional of the two parties carries the majority of the power.

No precedent has been set with that case, near as I can tell. Prenups get thrown out all the time for similar reasons.
I had never heard of it before. But then again my sister is getting married in 2 months so it has been on my mind.
 

Grumpus

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#14
And i'm not saying marriage isn't ok if it works out. Like I said, pretty healthy upbringing as far as marriage goes. Most of my family members are still together.

And the thought of marriage, death do us part and all the shit is cool.

But the law is scary and abstract.
 

Eomer

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#15
I'm trying to find the one in Canada from a couple months ago that was similar, but all I'm turning up is this recent one. Regardless, like I said, any contractual agreement can be litigated.
 
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#16
That is a bit naive. I don't know a ton about American divorce law, but it isn't *as* one sided as you are making it out to be.

The person who makes more, regardless of gender, has to think about that.

The world isn't just scumbag women trying to rip of poor unsuspecting men.
The thing is, it's still fairly rare for a woman to marry a man that makes less. Money and height are still two things that women are hung up on despite a change in the modern workforce.

Sure, it isn't totally one-sided, but it is getting worse. Take a look at the new age of reality TV, specifically the shows geared towards young women. Millionaire Matchmaker, the Housewives of X, all those stupid wedding shows.. All shows on how to be a spendthrift vapid bitch at the expense of your rich husband.

If the situation is such that you gave up a career to be with your husband, then yes in a divorce that should be accounted for. However, what is happening far too often in the US is that the man is a 2nd class citizen when it comes to divorce rights. It's actually worse in Canada, or at least in Quebec. I grew up there and my dad got taken to the freakin' cleaners.
 

TecKnoe

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#17
I honestly dont see the point in getting married, if two people love eachother isnt that enough? marriage just feels like something women think they need to do in their lifetime, like having a kid.

I dont ever hear about a dude talking about how he cant wait to get married and have all these things go on and happen at his wedding, we dont give a shit we are just along for the ride.

My parents arent married have been together for 35 years, both my uncles divorced twice, and each marriage lasted less than 8 years, so in my eyes marriage is a sham, if you wanna buy a ring and put it on her finger and all that sure, claim that whore to be yours but like grump said, marriage is a death trap for 90% of men.

Who in their right mind would enter a business contract, knowing in the end they are most likely going to lose... thats what it comes down to for me, if i want out im fucked, if you want out you're golden.. fuck that.
 

Grumpus

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#18
I know you guys hate analogies but its like if you signed up to a gym. And the contract said that if you stop going you still have to pay fee's for a year. Okay that's fair its your choice. Would anyone sign a contract that had that clause plus one that said if the gym decided they didn't want you working out there that you still had to pay a years worth of fee's?
 

chaos

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#19
Seriously bro, it sounds like you're having a sad because you had a bad breakup. That may not be what it is, but all this talk about feeling pwoerless before the law and women being emotional and all that sounds like a projection of your sad. It gets better.

rrr_img_17201.jpg


I try not to spend any time worrying about what would happen if my wife left me. She is in kind of the same position as lindz is, she moved very far to be with me and is a stay at home mom and didn't finish college. Yet anyway. I feel like a know her pretty well, and yeah she is crazy at times. Women, bro. But I feel like I know her well enough that she won't go crazy and leave me and try to take my millions. At this point I don't even look at it as "my" money really, we're building a family and a life together, the money and assets and shit go with that.
 

mkopec

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#20
/shrugs, this dude that I work with gets an alimony because his wife made more than him.

But women usually definitely have the advantage. The scariest thing for me is losing my kids. Well not really losing them, but losing the ability to see them every day. That would probably break me.