Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Hoss · Feb 4, 2022

How much of the aupair's costs are tax deductible? I assumed it was 100% because it's child care. In that case the tax rates wouldn't play into the calculation.

So we're looking at paying $20-$30k per year. Median household income is $67k in the US. If you figure mom and dad are both making the same money (I know they're not, but it makes the "let someone else raise your child" argument stronger, so whatever), that's mom going to work to earn $33k/year to pay an aupair $20k. Then you factor in extra gas, lunches, work clothes, ordering out for dinner more nights (unless an aupair also cooks) and just generally not being able to manage the household.

20 years ago my sister gave up a job making around $40 - $50k per year to be home with her kids. They broke even with the money she saved from managing the house and not paying for childcare. That was pretty extreme, but that was also a really high salary back then. That's why I say people don't realize all the small expenses associated with going to work that really add up.

Cad said:
Edit: and even if it did approach it, how does it make sense to have a person sitting at home not developing their career for the 5-7 years it takes your kids to be in full time school? What are they gonna do after that? You hamstring their career and cost yourself hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars when you can't get them back to work later or they just get shitty jobs because they're 35 and no/little experience...

How is that a good plan? Put her to work and let the kids go to school, sheesh. Stay at home mom has absolutely nothing to do all day once they are in 1st grade.

First off: You place a very low value on raising your own kids. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Second, I'm not sure what % of jobs this would be career suicide for. My sister was a district manager. Once her kids were off in school, she got another job and was on her way to district manager for a bigger company again in less than a year. Seems like this is a small % of jobs the career suicide thing would apply to. I think your argument is stronger if we were talking about homeschooling.

TJT · Feb 4, 2022

Wife and I are both 100% working remotely and indefinitely. It has really changed the dynamic of what is possible and saves lots and lots of money.

Going to be an interesting next few years. She found a Ukrainian woman who comes by to help us just a few hours a week. Mainly so she can get work done with no distractions for like 4 hours at a time. Going to overall cost $5k a year or something maybe. I have two jobs and have a lot less overall downtime with the kid so far. But I think that will also change in the relative future.

Pemulis · Feb 4, 2022

everyone's situation is different; news at 11:00

Khane · Feb 4, 2022

Hoss said:
Second, I'm not sure what % of jobs this would be career suicide for. My sister was a district manager. Once her kids were off in school, she got another job and was on her way to district manager for a bigger company again in less than a year. Seems like this is a small % of jobs the career suicide thing would apply to. I think your argument is stronger if we were talking about homeschooling.

Your sister's experience is probably the exception, not the rule. Based on your info she started having kids later in life and she was already established in a career and had valuable experience, in a field that doesn't change much over time (for instance, try doing this in any technology driven field, your previous experience will be almost invalidated).

It's not very likely you can just jump back into the workforce and make headway again. And if you started having kids earlier, like right after college, you'd have no previous experience anyway and your degree (if you had one) would be almost useless. Not to mention paying student loans for an education you're unlikely to ever get to make use of.

Ugh, that's another sticking point for me. Imagining being saddled with someone else's student loans for an education they aren't planning to make use of.

Cad · Feb 4, 2022

Hoss said:
How much of the aupair's costs are tax deductible? I assumed it was 100% because it's child care. In that case the tax rates wouldn't play into the calculation.

So we're looking at paying $20-$30k per year. Median household income is $67k in the US. If you figure mom and dad are both making the same money (I know they're not, but it makes the "let someone else raise your child" argument stronger, so whatever), that's mom going to work to earn $33k/year to pay an aupair $20k. Then you factor in extra gas, lunches, work clothes, ordering out for dinner more nights (unless an aupair also cooks) and just generally not being able to manage the household.

20 years ago my sister gave up a job making around $40 - $50k per year to be home with her kids. They broke even with the money she saved from managing the house and not paying for childcare. That was pretty extreme, but that was also a really high salary back then. That's why I say people don't realize all the small expenses associated with going to work that really add up.

First off: You place a very low value on raising your own kids. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Second, I'm not sure what % of jobs this would be career suicide for. My sister was a district manager. Once her kids were off in school, she got another job and was on her way to district manager for a bigger company again in less than a year. Seems like this is a small % of jobs the career suicide thing would apply to. I think your argument is stronger if we were talking about homeschooling.

There's a big difference between saying "I don't raise my kids" and "I have someone to take them to school and play with them after school so my wife can work." Don't be an asshole.

OU Ariakas · Feb 4, 2022

Khane said:
Your sister's experience is probably the exception, not the rule. Based on your info she started having kids later in life and she was already established in a career and had valuable experience, in a field that doesn't change much over time (for instance, try doing this in any technology driven field, your previous experience will be almost invalidated).

It's not very likely you can just jump back into the workforce and make headway again. And if you started having kids earlier, like right after college, you'd have no previous experience anyway and your degree (if you had one) would be almost useless. Not to mention paying student loans for an education you're unlikely to ever get to make use of.

The worm is turning on women being heavily penalized for being out of the workforce due to raising children. Fortune 500 companies are making this a point due to Grrrrrrrl Power but it is an area where smart and hard-working women are going to be able to transition back into the workforce far easier than in the past. This is good for society as a whole because over time high value women will not feel the need to forego having children in order to maintain a career.

Khane said:
Ugh, that's another sticking point for me. Imagining being saddled with someone else's student loans for an education they aren't planning to make use of.

Man, I really think that trying to shift your focus away from long-term relationships as being 90% transactional would be very helpful. I was a very frugal person and my wife was not when we met; we have not had money problems (outside of me thinking we spend too much). Over the last 12 years she has gotten more frugal and I less because we have both had a running dialogue of the value of the money we are spending, both now and in the future.

If you are wary of a partner leaving you and taking your money then look for someone who is dedicated to the same type of life; go to a local church and sit in the Dave Ramsey classes until you find one! Also, instead of brining a prenup into the equation, why don't you talk to an estate planning lawyer about other ways to protect your income NOW so that you only have to worry about what you make during the marriage? I know the thought of someone taking what you worked for is hard but life really is meant to be spent with a family and you cannot take anything with you when you are gone.

Hoss · Feb 4, 2022

Cad said:
There's a big difference between saying "I don't raise my kids" and "I have someone to take them to school and play with them after school so my wife can work." Don't be an asshole.

yeah I'm the one being an asshole. Or maybe I'm the one talking about the majority of people.

I admit I had a strong suspicion that line would rankle you because it's a sore subject for most people who choose their career over staying home with the kids. Much like I'm sure you knew this line would rankle people who couldn't afford aupairs and private schools.

Cad said:
How fucking little do you guys make that montessori school + aupair approaches the income of an entire person? The fuck?

As I said, the value of staying home is under-valued in my opinion. Doesn't mean it's for everyone but everyone should think seriously about it.

Cad · Feb 4, 2022

Hoss said:
yeah I'm the one being an asshole. Or maybe I'm the one talking about the majority of people.

I admit I had a strong suspicion that line would rankle you because it's a sore subject for most people who choose their career over staying home with the kids. Much like I'm sure you knew this line would rankle people who couldn't afford aupairs and private schools.

As I said, the value of staying home is under-valued in my opinion. Doesn't mean it's for everyone but everyone should think seriously about it.

Maybe you should volunteer to stay home and let your wife go to work since it's such an important role to you.

Hoss · Feb 4, 2022

Khane said:
Your sister's experience is probably the exception, not the rule. Based on your info she started having kids later in life and she was already established in a career and had valuable experience, in a field that doesn't change much over time (for instance, try doing this in any technology driven field, your previous experience will be almost invalidated).

It's not very likely you can just jump back into the workforce and make headway again. And if you started having kids earlier, like right after college, you'd have no previous experience anyway and your degree (if you had one) would be almost useless. Not to mention paying student loans for an education you're unlikely to ever get to make use of.

Ugh, that's another sticking point for me. Imagining being saddled with someone else's student loans for an education they aren't planning to make use of.

since you asked, I did some math. She was 23 when the first was born but didn't quit until after the 2nd was born. Definitely in her late 20's. She had been working for the company since she was 16 I think, so call it 10 years experience even though at the beginning it was part time. Started as a cashier and worked her way up to store manager, area manager and district manager.

She dropped out of community college. Even today,. 1/3rd of HS grads don't go to college and only 60% of those who do ever graduate.

Yeah I would agree that the skills needed didn't change much while she was off. Managing people was still managing people. These days with the woke bullshit would be a different story. That's why I question what % of careers this is suicide for. If you're waiting tables, waiting tables will be the same when you come back. If you're on a construction crew, that shit will be the same when you come back.

Of course my sister is the exception. She's amazing. But I bet she's more typical than a partner at a law firm.

OU Ariakas said:
The worm is turning on women being heavily penalized for being out of the workforce due to raising children. Fortune 500 companies are making this a point due to Grrrrrrrl Power but it is an area where smart and hard-working women are going to be able to transition back into the workforce far easier than in the past. This is good for society as a whole because over time high value women will not feel the need to forego having children in order to maintain a career.

My wife is literally getting raises when men aren't because she is a woman and women don't make as much as men in whatever bullshit calculation they're using. But I'm sure he's right about falling behind in some fields if the woman makes no attempt to keep up during her break.

Hoss · Feb 4, 2022

Cad said:
Maybe you should volunteer to stay home and let your wife go to work since it's such an important role to you.

We're past that point. But in 2022 with remote working being so in vogue, it would be a lot easier.

Kirun · Feb 4, 2022

Serious question for the au pairs and nanny users out there.

If your lives were just so busy that you can't even pick the kid up after school and play with him/her, what was the point of having children?

Khane · Feb 4, 2022

Kirun said:
Serious question for the au pairs and nanny users out there.

If your lives were just so busy that you can't even pick the kid up after school and play with him/her, what was the point of having children?

The school day typically ends well before a work day does.

Kirun · Feb 4, 2022

Khane said:
The school day typically ends well before a work day does.

Would it have helped if I supplanted the word "lives" with "work schedule"?

Khane · Feb 4, 2022

Kirun said:
Would it have helped if I supplanted the word "lives" with "work schedule"?

I'm not really sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting most people have the luxury of saying "Hey boss, need to change my work schedule. Gotta be out by 2:30 so I can get the kid off the bus by 3"

Cad · Feb 4, 2022

Kirun said:
Serious question for the au pairs and nanny users out there.

If your lives were just so busy that you can't even pick the kid up after school and play with him/her, what was the point of having children?

I do all the fun things with my kids, and have since they're born. I take them to play ball, ride bikes, I taught them ride skateboards, taught them to play tennis and golf, play basketball with my older boys, talk about books with them, hell me and my oldest spent a few hours the other night watching music videos and talking about music trends.

Whether I'm there at 3:15pm has nothing to do with whether or not I'm involved in their life. By all accounts I'm more involved with my kids than most parents, whether they "have time" or not.

You're so obsessed with these super traditional ideas of family and who does what. You act like if someone has an aupair, that they never even see or interact with their kids. It's totally asinine.

Foler · Feb 4, 2022

OU Ariakas said:
The worm is turning on women being heavily penalized for being out of the workforce due to raising children. Fortune 500 companies are making this a point due to Grrrrrrrl Power but it is an area where smart and hard-working women are going to be able to transition back into the workforce far easier than in the past. This is good for society as a whole because over time high value women will not feel the need to forego having children in order to maintain a career.

Man, I really think that trying to shift your focus away from long-term relationships as being 90% transactional would be very helpful. I was a very frugal person and my wife was not when we met; we have not had money problems (outside of me thinking we spend too much). Over the last 12 years she has gotten more frugal and I less because we have both had a running dialogue of the value of the money we are spending, both now and in the future.

If you are wary of a partner leaving you and taking your money then look for someone who is dedicated to the same type of life; go to a local church and sit in the Dave Ramsey classes until you find one! Also, instead of brining a prenup into the equation, why don't you talk to an estate planning lawyer about other ways to protect your income NOW so that you only have to worry about what you make during the marriage? I know the thought of someone taking what you worked for is hard but life really is meant to be spent with a family and you cannot take anything with you when you are gone.

Lol good Dave Ramsey reference. Guarantees you’ll find someone who isn’t a complete idiot with money. Not a bad idea at all!

Foler · Feb 4, 2022

Kirun said:
Serious question for the au pairs and nanny users out there.

If your lives were just so busy that you can't even pick the kid up after school and play with him/her, what was the point of having children?

An insurance plan to take care of you when you’re holder, duh.

Kirun · Feb 4, 2022

Khane said:
I'm not really sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting most people have the luxury of saying "Hey boss, need to change my work schedule. Gotta be out by 2:30 so I can get the kid off the bus by 3"

I'm not. I'm suggesting that if they can't ask that or if they know their boss will say "no", why do they think they're "ready" to have children?

Cad said:
You're so obsessed with these super traditional ideas of family and who does what. You act like if someone has an aupair, that they never even see or interact with their kids. It's totally asinine.

Obsessed? Because I'm genuinely curious why people are choosing to tri-parent with an aupair instead of raising a "traditional" family? Yeah, America has really done well in its progress these past 60 years by bucking "tradition". How weird of me!

Cad · Feb 4, 2022

Kirun said:
I'm not. I'm suggesting that if they can't ask that or if they know their boss will say "no", why do they think they're "ready" to have children?

Obsessed? Because I'm genuinely curious why people are choosing to tri-parent with an aupair instead of raising a "traditional" family? Yeah, America has really done well in its progress these past 60 years by bucking "tradition". How weird of me!

Hows that tradition working out for you sport? You're married, kids, wife stays at home and cooks and cleans, your kids are polite and say yes sir no sir, wash their hands before dinner and don't feed the dog under the table? How's that Norman Rockwell life treating you?

Khane · Feb 4, 2022

Kirun said:
I'm not. I'm suggesting that if they can't ask that or if they know their boss will say "no", why do they think they're "ready" to have children?

Well, I guess "disqualifying" people from having kids on that type of criteria would alleviate overpopulation issues....

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