Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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hodj

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Dumar promising another world ending post that he'll never deliver on, then citing more sociologist Marxists, the exact opposite of what Khalid requested.

What a disingenuous worthless hack shill you are Dumar.

Really fucking pathetic.
 

Tanoomba

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How about another take on the Mikhail/Hodj debacle?
(Spoilered for length)

I had to take Hodj off ignore to follow the conversation, but in the end I was only reminded why he was on ignore in the first place.
Let me make something clear: It's not just because he's absolutely terrible at debating. He really, really is, but that's not his biggest flaw. Lots of people suck at debating, especially on the internet. It's not just how he manages to take any earnest debate and consistently twist it to suit his own selfish needs. It's not just how he either dishonestly misrepresents or flat-out ignores any points that don't gel with his view. It's not just how he acts like an authority on stuff he clearly knows little to nothing about. All of those are forgivable, and in fact pretty much expected in online debates. (Note that the conversation unfurled EXACTLY as Mikhail predicted it would, hence his justified hesitance to even discuss it here.) No, what elevates Hodj from terrible debater to terrible poster is that he does all that in the most irritatingly pompous, over-the-top obnoxious and embarrassingly childish way possible. He'll take a shitty stance, tune out everything except his own narrow view, and literally wait out his opponent through immature psychological attacks. He can't actually defend his view so he annoys the shit out his opponent until his opponent's patience inevitably runs out (and Mikhail was nothing if not patient) and Hodj can claim a "victory". He does this in literally every debate he participates in. It's a fucking joke. I know it, Mikhail knows it, Dumar knows it, and I would be shocked if there weren't others who've been put in the same situation.

A truly communist system is one in which the power of production is in the hands of the workers. Extremely simple point. In the very few cases where this system was implemented, it worked very well until it was crushed by external forces that had nothing to do with communism (although it may very well have been driven by a desire to squelch communism). Another remarkably simple point. Hodj wasted countless posts arguing that systems that did not follow the "power to the workers" rule (a non-optional element of communism) should be considered communism anyway because it was labelled communismso there. What a fucking waste of time. A far more interesting discussion could have taken place about whether or not a communist system could exist today, why or why not, what it would take to create the circumstances under which it could, what the consequences could be, human nature, etc. Instead we have over 40 pages of "Nuh-uh, Mao is communist because he wrote a book and lots of people read it,so there." This is dishonest, pathetic arguing for the sake of arguing, and if we weren't already in the shaw Hodj's performance would have pushed us there. For shame.

Here's an experiment: To satisfy Hodj's childish need to feel "right" (logic and reason be damned), why don't we play a semantics game? Let's coin the term "cawmunism" to describe a system in which production is in the hands of the workers (we shouldn't have to do this, a perfectly good term already exists, but Hodj will not allow the use of this term without hijacking it and distorting it for his own selfish purposes). So we have cawmunism, which has rarely been attempted but has had good results when it was implemented, and we have communism, which was attempted several times and always failed. Are you happy, Hodj? You get to keep your definition of communism! How about we have a rational discussion about cawmunism?

Also, Trollface's trolling level has been taking a nosedive recently. He really should take a lesson from Araysar, who's really getting the hang of it!
 

hodj

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Tanoomba pretending anyone in the shaw gives a fuck about his opinion.

No one, and I mean this truly, gives a flying fuck what you have to say about anything, and no one, not a single person on this forum, is going to read a word you have to say.

Throw yourself in a wood chipper for the sake of humanity you awful shit posting reject.
 

hodj

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No, really, no one gives a shit, and no one is reading what you post. Get out of our conversation. We don't need you coming in and shitting up the thread. You are the worst poster on this board and no one respects you or gives a fuck about your opinion.

Shit off back to the hole you crawled out of you worthless waste of carbon atoms.
 

khalid

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No one, and I mean this truly, gives a flying fuck what you have to say about anything, and no one, not a single person on this forum, is going to read a word you have to say. .
I respectfully disagree. Tanoomba can often bring an interesting take on subjects. He certainly is one of the few posters who stands up to the silly and misogynistic standard on these forums of "women can't be friends if they are attractive". He just tends to get carried away with going to the other extreme, like saying Zimmerman needed to live with a black family or justifying hiring a hitman.


How about another take on the Mikhail/Hodj debacle?
(Spoilered for length)

Here is where you launch a big personal attack on Hodj
So you claim Hodj is a terrible poster and do so by jumping into the middle of a debate and launching personal attacks? This after you carry your silly signature for months? If you want to "be the better man", then get rid of that sig. Your signature makes no one think differently of Hodj, instead it is a sign that even after all this time you don't want to admit your initial impression of the Trayvon/Zimmerman trial was wrong. It is things like this that make me wonder why I am so fond of your posts.


It's not just how he acts like an authority on stuff he clearly knows little to nothing about.
This is actually why Hodj is a GREAT poster. He spends the time to research the topics he is debating. When he debates Marxism, he goes through and pulls up a bunch of relevant quotes. When he is debating Lumie, he goes and does research and pulls up relevant things. That isn't bad debating, that IS WHAT DEBATE SHOULD BE ABOUT. If your philosophy or point can't simply answer obvious questions, what is the point of even coming here to argue something? Shit, answering the very simple question I asked Dumar and Bak, which they still haven't answered, should be the first fucking thing they are ready for.

You say they weren't true communists because they didn't reach the endgame. Yet they quote Marx and say themselves that was their end game, it just seems at least to an outsider view that they failed at it. You promise that your communist revolution will be different from all the ones before it. So HOW? Fuck dude, I want to live in a communist utopia. Fuck the man dude, let me do what I want to do in my life and get equal access to things. Bring your utopia on. First though, show me how your revolution will be different than it was before. Is my father going to get killed and his land taken for that? Be honest with me.

and Mikhail was nothing if not patient
Seriously dude, Mikhail? He is one of the first to go to personal insults in ANY debate. Hell, I was on his side in the gun control debate, misstated something in a way he found bothersome and then he spent the next 20 fucking pages calling me a racist. The guy is the last thing from a patient poster. The enemy of your enemy isn't automatically a patient person, sorry.


A truly communist system is one in which the power of production is in the hands of the workers. Extremely simple point. In the very few cases where this system was implemented, it worked very well until it was crushed by external forces that had nothing to do with communism (although it may very well have been driven by a desire to squelch communism).
Again, and I said this to Dumar. That is your END CONDITION. You can't completely invalidate all the systems that tried to get there by saying they weren't communists. They (Mao, Lenin, Pol Pot) all claimed to want to bring power to the people. They all did many things advocated in Marxist texts and by Marxist debaters on these forums. These reforms all ended horribly badly. Was that because they implemented them poorly? Was it because many of these reforms shouldn't have been done? If you invalidate any movement's relevance until it reaches the end state, you are saying we can't mention any of the failings of communist movements because you refuse to label anything that wasn't successful as part of your movement.You are making your system of government not only unfalsifiable, but uncriticizable!Think about how absurd that is.

Again, let me put it in all caps so you don't miss this, HOW IS YOUR REVOLUTION GOING TO BE DIFFERENT? Communist posters on this forum and in real life aren't mocked because we don't want a communist utopia. It is because I cannot wrap my head around putting the means of production in the hands of the workers until we hit the singularity and either have ubiquitous robots or universal replicators.
 

iannis

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Tanooma is reformable. I recognize his mindset. I shared it in my late teens and early twenties, and if it was not exactly congruent it was close enough for empathy and understanding. It's also why I still assume tanoomba is younger than he lets on. It may look like he's asserting specific things but those long posts are indicative of him working through a set of ideas. They're more process than product.

Now I know people that stay in that mindset until they die, so maybe he'll never break through it. Plato's cave and whatever. And we'll never see it, hold no hope of that. Tanoomba is going to argue some refinement and variation of the easypity argument every time until such point as he realizes such arguments are self defeating. Khalid isn't wrong, you can see something back behind that process that is probably worth listening to eventually.

I don't assume he's young as an insult. And I may be wrong about it anyway. It is possible that in his stretch of Canada this bullshit passes for wisdom. But that's the thing about bullshit, if you have enough people in any group buy into it it doesn't matter too much what the particulars of the bullshit are, the bullshit will half ass sort of work. Some bullshit might work better for more people and require less personal investment, but even the worst bullshit will half ass kinda work with enough investment. That's basically the story of history.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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Tanooma is reformable. I recognize his mindset. I shared it in my late teens and early twenties, and if it was not exactly congruent it was close enough for empathy and understanding. It's also why I still assume tanoomba is younger than he lets on. It may look like he's asserting specific things but those long posts are indicative of him working through a set of ideas. They're more process than product.

Now I know people that stay in that mindset until they die, so maybe he'll never break through it. Plato's cave and whatever. And we'll never see it, hold no hope of that. Tanoomba is going to argue some refinement and variation of the easypity argument every time until such point as he realizes such arguments are self defeating. Khalid isn't wrong, you can see something back behind that process that is probably worth listening to eventually.

I don't assume he's young as an insult. And I may be wrong about it anyway. It is possible that in his stretch of Canada this bullshit passes for wisdom. But that's the thing about bullshit, if you have enough people in any group buy into it it doesn't matter too much what the particulars of the bullshit are, the bullshit will half ass sort of work. Some bullshit might work better for more people and require less personal investment, but even the worst bullshit will half ass kinda work with enough investment. That's basically the story of history.
yes.
 

hodj

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Before Tanoomba can be reformed, he has to realize he's shit.

But since he can't accept that he's shit, he can never be reformed. Its the conundrum of being a terrible person.

I don't read any of the really hard right Conservative posters on here anyway to really care if they're terrible posters or not. Once I realize someone is just regurgitating Fox and Townhall.com headlines, I just stop reading their posts. If I wanted to hear what they had to say, I'd just turn on Limbaugh at noon and I can't stand listening to Limbaugh.
 

hodj

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To Khalid, my reaction is more about keeping Tanoomba from destroying this thread with his retarded arguments, which will nevert match even what Dumar and Mikhail can muster, since Tanoomba's intellect is far far far below their own.

Tanoomba turns threads into the Zimmerman thread and the Woman claims she was raped thread, every time. Without fail. This thread is much better without his contributions than with.

Not to mention, I seriously doubt Dumar and Mikhail want to have to defend their points of view AND Tanoomba's. That's like the most unfair handicap in internet debating history.
 

iannis

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You would have liked Khorum. It was like reading George Will vomit all over IRB personally.

I still wonder if Khorum/IRB was a dual account when I remember Khorum. It was just too perfect, and I deeply mistrust perfect.

Which, come to think of it, might have something to do with why I'm still single.

No wait, they were whores. That's why. Now I remember.
 

hodj

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You would have liked Khorum. It was like reading George Will vomit all over IRB personally.

I still wonder if Khorum/IRB was a dual account when I remember Khorum. It was just too perfect, and I deeply mistrust perfect.

Which, come to think of it, might have something to do with why I'm still single.

No wait, they were whores. That's why. Now I remember.
I know who Khorum was, I remember him.

At least he was entertaining to read.

And I always thought they (Khorum/IRB) were either friends irl trolling everyone or alt accounts too.
 

Dumar_sl

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Here we go, ladies and gentlemen. I broke it into two parts and made it as digestible as I could. The first is really needed to understand the second. And in them, I have addressed both the questions posed by khalid and Beagle.

A few presuppositions:

1. Gazillions of dollars in funds (can't do anything in the US politically otherwise, regardless of ideas)
2. I'm not shipped to Gitmo or Snowden'd (which would happen later on)
3. I have the sufficient pedigree and background (i.e., I can't just 'pop' out of nowhere, at a minimum near ivy league, politician daddy, hooker-free past is needed, otherwise it'll be attacked)



Part 1: Where are we today? Or what really is this capitalism thing, anyway?

The first and ironically, the hardest, step on the road to anywhere, to anything, is education. We and the American people must really learn how the system in which we livereally worksbefore anything can be done. The comprehension of the innerworkings of this system, related to each person within it sitting on the couch watching, is the first task to be done before anything else, and I said, it's the hardest. Why? This stuff isboring, and it's very hard to get people to listen to this before they've already turned into mob status due to some crisis, or instead of watching the football game, instead of turning it on MTV after work. That is a monumentally difficult task that the capitalists have done over the past century, and they've done it very well. To win the minds of people, you have to win their hearts first. And that takestime, repeating the same message over and over with fancy graphics on the tv screen. However, the difference isourmessage will be one ofunabridged and unbiased truth, not a Fox News-esque propraganda vehicle designed to convince people to vote against their own interests. Truth is where we begin will finally end.

I would use my gazillion dollars to buy airtime on major networks, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN in primetime slots and construct a news program that reports, and allots time to, understanding the role of money, of capital in our everyday lives. This would start slowly, and it would sprinkle in a broad range of topics over time. Even if people disagree with it initially because the brainwashing has gone on for years with the 24/7 news outlets, I would continue this to raise awareness. I would be bringing in charts, videos, TED speakers, showing the accumulation & concentration of wealth, the stagnation and even fall of wages, what synthetic markets actually are and how the rich utilize them - i.e.,I would show them how they're actually losing their stake in the increasing wealth of the country.
A big part of this is presentation, not content. It has to be accessible and quick to digest because that's our culture, which is why OWS failed: proper presentation of their protest.

The topics would slowly get more complex as the show continued, and I would continue to buy more airtime, ad campaigns, and begin townhalls all around the country. In short, what has to happen is that our message becomes just as ubiquitous as the other news media: people have to feelcomfortablewith words likecapital accumulationandrights at the point of production, just as Fox has made words like entitlements and welfare state part of the everyday lexicon. And again, the difference is ours is completely truthful and honest, even mathematically so.

To be as brief as I possibly can, capitalism is a system where a person benefits from another person's work. This is exploitation, whether or not you or the audience still agree with the exploitation itself, and so this relationship between these two people isn't genuine (they may not even wish to talk to one another otherwise), and it's mediated through something called capital, through things called money and a wage. This thing called money is an abstraction of value, and it's definitely a very useful concept: we can compare the 'value' of a painting to a dildo. But lots of interesting stuff happens when these things gain this 'value' that you can compare to dildos and paintings. The thing no longer just has value as a thing (enjoying a painting, using a dildo), but it now has a different value, something called a market value. This is different, because someone may be willing to pay a hundred dollars for a black dildo, but it's used the same way. This thing, here a dildo, now has a property, a value, it never had before. Why does it have it? Because of something we made up, that doesn't exist in reality, only as an abstraction to ourselves:money now has value, and the value things have don't reflect their actualthings as thingsin reality.

Dumar, you're rambling. Why is this important? It's very important. Because this is the beginnings of where capitalists (i.e., those with lots of money) can exploit the system without doing any real work. A laborer doesreal work, something gets done, in the physical world: a tree gets chopped down, a toilet gets cleaned, a computer gets programmed. But the person or even group of people that did these activities don't realizeanyof the benefit from doing it, what they realize is a wage paid to them by the person or people whoownwhatever piece of land, office, or company in which the real work gets done. So what we have here is another layer of abstraction, the concept of a company or corporation. Only existing on paper, it states that a person or group of people ('shareholders') own something called stock that entitles them to all of the productive output of the people doing this real work, and the least these workers are getting would be a 'fair market wage' for this work done in reality. You can see then, that anyrights related to this production, even constitutionally, has been ignored and is taken for granted from the viewpoint ofownership, which obviously benefits theowners- this has been the exclusive, entire focus. And it's one reason our Constitution is somewhat flawed.

If someone with lots of money, then, can reinvest that money into different markets, it's seen as a good thing by the national narrative ('job creators'), but the problem is money begets money, capital accumulates more capital more quickly than work accumulates capital. If I have a million dollars, I can make a million more much more easily than the first million. I won't mention that dude with a four-letter name because you requested I didn't, but this is what he predicted. Capital, or wealth in this case, gets concentrated in fewer and fewer hands because of the way the system benefits the people with that capital and wealth to begin with. What is the natural consequence of this then (the 'not being aware of itself' I mentioned in another post)? Capital and wealth takes limits as barriers to overcome, and by overcoming generate yet more capital, more wealth. So we get these massive market bubbles and synthetic markets (derivatives) whose entire purpose is to generate more wealth for those that already have it. The chain of market collapse in 2007 led to real, tangible asset loss, real homes being lost, by people with jobs like the lumberer, janitor, or programmer. This was due to themarket value(remember?) of their house, not anything real about the house. Through what existed on paper and the manipulation and overcoming of that that by capital, another crisis in capitalism ensued. With the fact that real wages haven't increased in decades, those working people aren't actually evergaininganything but continue to lose more and more, despite increases in productivity, output, or profit for those shareholders and that thing that exists only on paper, the company.

What are the consequences of this type of societal structure on us as human beings? We're taught in our modern way of life certain cultural norms, certain things that once we hear them enough, are taken for granted as 'normal'. Each culture throughout history has done this. It was 'normal' and therefore healthy in pre-modern Japan to view the Emperor as descended from Amaterasu-omikami (God), for example. It was 'normal' to throw Spartan babies into the sea. Looking back at these cultures and ours, can we point to thoughts or activities instilled into us and them that are objectively unhealthy for all of us as human beings? And if there are objectively unhealthy things in ours and those cultures, what then, are objectively healthy states for all of us, as human beings?

If we look at our culture, our way of life, we see it's entirely dominated by a market structure: our culture's laws, institutions, and therefore, our thought patterns, all support and rely on that structure to make sense of the world. All social relations, then, from worker to owner, to romantic partners, to even family, are represented in our minds by this market structure. That's why you get sites like OKC and analyses such as the sexual market value chart. The representation of reality in our minds is reflected by the institutions that instilled them, and that conception, our conception, is to view everything as this transactional, give-and-take market activity.

Even beyond our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions are regulated and conceived of through the concept of market activity. Doing dishes for your wife is seen as 'buying favor' for sex later. Dating 'game' is but a reflection of a business relationship in a 'market'. The relationships under modern capitalism are not genuine relationships, but are created and thought of in terms of the structure that regulates economic activity and man's labor. And so, personality traits such as greed, hyper-assertiveness, and excessive confidence are prized not just in the sphere of the economic, but the interpersonal: it's all rolled into one.

Let us suppose that the role of society, the role of culture, is to facilitate for each and every individual to realize their full potential as human beings and enter into relationships with other human beingsof their free will and association. This our type of character ordination, these celebrated behaviors, are very unhealthy, much as the Spartan babies, not just for the individual, but for the society around them. It leads to mental illnesses, a feeling of alienation in one's life, even violence. We need to replace the concept of that market structure with something else for the genuine individual and his relationships to flourish.

And that is what communism has set as its task. To free man from man by man. To free ourselves of these same types of exploitative relationships in all spheres of life. To let real human history begin.

Step 1 is getting this message out to every media orifice out there and hammering home, through effective presentation, the truth about how our system works.

And from there, the road to real human freedom, real communism. Stay tuned for part 2.
 

hodj

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So basically that giant wall of text boils down to you would berate people with your religion via purchased ads on airwaves until they all believe it.

Like these guys, I guess



I forsee you having about as much success with that as Scientologists had with their Dianetics outreach in the 90s

 
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