Mikhail and Hodj's Political Thread

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Araysar

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hodj_sl said:
Thanks for the tacit confirmation I'm winning, but I already knew that.

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Nothing says "Im winning" like repeatedly claiming victory yourself. Cmon Hodjie, you're getting run down harder than a Kentucky Confederate
 
khalid

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TheBeagle_sl said:
As a fair and impartial observer i think you and Mik get on each others nerves so much and are so invested in calling each other retard, that neither one of you really do a good job of reading or digesting the other's posts.
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Also, another point on Hodj vs Mikhail. When has Hodj ever claimed to be "the smarter person"? Mikhail is constantly proclaiming how smart he is when asked to cite sources, as if his innate intelligence has anything to do with it.

Hint: If you start having to loudly scream "Im smarter than you", you probably aren't smarter than the other guy.
 
hodj

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TheBeagle_sl said:
Ya but you allowed them to take you off on that tangent instead of ignoring that argument and sticking with that one simple question; why do the 'attempts' at communism always devolve into forced labor camps and wholesale slaughter? What are the underlying forces at work that keep communism from ever truly being realized as Marx envisioned?
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I literally don't know what you're trying to say here. That I should just repeat an answer they refuse to address while they continue to spout fallacious and spurious lies to refute it and then not address the lies at all?

How effective an arguing technique is that?

By going at their argument, I'm able to show what those underlying forces that lead to failure are, as I have with Mao's attempts to modernize agriculture and socialize agriculture and industry leading to shortages and chaos and then repression of potential counter revolutionaries and political opponents under the guise, almost certainly believed whole heartedly by the ones engaging in the activity, as absolutely necessary to prevent the return of the evil enemy capitalists.
 
hodj

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Araysar_sl said:
Nothing says "Im winning" like repeatedly claiming victory yourself. Cmon Hodjie, you're getting run down harder than a Kentucky Confederate
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Saying it one time isn't repeatedly.

Why so many strawman lately Araysar? Hmmm?

Might be cause you're grasping...at straws?

 
TheBeagle

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khalid_sl said:
Also, another point on Hodj vs Mikhail. When has Hodj ever claimed to be "the smarter person"? Mikhail is constantly proclaiming how smart he is when asked to cite sources, as if his innate intelligence has anything to do with it.

Hint: If you start having to loudly scream "Im smarter than you", you probably aren't smarter than the other guy.
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I never claimed that Hodj claimed he was the smartest. I don't have a dog in this fight, I like both of 'em.

But I do agree that Mik needs to work on controlling his temper and name calling if he wants to be taken more seriously.
 
khalid

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Yeah, the problem is that Hodj did ask the question you wanted asked, multiple times. They ignored it and instead of answering say "its a silly question because Mao wasn't really trying to start a communist utopia because he wasn't a communist".
 
Araysar

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Mikhail is just very passionate and believes in what he says, while Hodj just does this to troll people
 
khalid

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Araysar_sl said:
Mikhail is just very passionate and believes in what he says, while Hodj just does this to troll people
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Being so invested in a topic that you can't talk about it rationally isn't a good thing and certainly doesn't support that the person is in the right.
 
hodj

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I wasn't aware I was trolling.

I like to see it more as confronting dogmatic, religious style thinking, personally.

I see Dumar and Mikhail and Lumie as all basically the same poster. If you told me they were all alts of one another, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

The only problem is they can't be, because no one person is so unoriginal as to have two communist poster alts. How boring.
 
khalid

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They are two communist poster alts who disagree on Marxism. It is really genius if you think about it.
 
TheBeagle

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hodj_sl said:
I literally don't know what you're trying to say here. That I should just repeat an answer they refuse to address while they continue to spout fallacious and spurious lies to refute it and then not address the lies at all?

How effective an arguing technique is that?

By going at their argument, I'm able to show what those underlying forces that lead to failure are, as I have with Mao's attempts to modernize agriculture and socialize agriculture and industry leading to shortages and chaos and then repression of potential counter revolutionaries and political opponents under the guise, almost certainly believed whole heartedly by the ones engaging in the activity, as absolutely necessary to prevent the return of the evil enemy capitalists.
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By allowing someone to take you on a tangent you allow them to control the direction of the argument and keep you from probing their weaknesses, which in this case is the obvious outcome whenever communism has been attempted.

From my seats in the bleachers, it seemed that you never shortly and succinctly confronted them with the question of why attempts at communism begin with blood baths and end in labor camps.

I know you did ask, but it was always surrounded by so much other stuff that it allowed your opponents to attack another part of your argument rather than directly address that most difficult question.

That's one reason Araybro is such an effective internet warrior, he keeps it short and sweet and never lets opponent run away from him.
 
D

Dumar_sl

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The entire reason communism exists as Marx defined it from the Paris Manuscripts to the Manifesto, is due to the understanding of labor: it focuses on the exploitation of the labor of the working class by the capitalist bourgeois class. This is obvious for anyone with just cursory knowledge of Marx, even hodj. This exploitation of labor is the reason for the formulation of communism. That's why the idea exists as an idea in Marx: to free man and his labor from exploitative forces. That is freedom to Marx.The protest of and solution to that exploitative system, capitalism, is called communism.

If a regime, whether it labels itself communist, capitalist, or whatever -ist, institutes policy that forces labor of its people, that forces occupations upon them, that terrorizes and brutalizes if they protest that forced labor in labor camps, it is not communism according to Marx.

As I said previously, it may have certain communistic, socialistic properties, but itis not communism regardless of whatever the regime says.

The basic, key condition of communism is freedom of man by man, of man's labor not subjected to another man's determination.That is communism in Marx. You are free to define communism differently. If you want to define it by the policies implemented in Maoism and Stalinism, then that is your choice to do so.

With that, I'll get onto the more interesting stuff next.
 
hodj

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TheBeagle_sl said:
By allowing someone to take you on a tangent you allow them to control the direction of the argument and keep you from probing their weaknesses, which in this case is the obvious outcome whenever communism has been attempted.
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From my seats in the bleachers, it seemed that you never shortly and succinctly confronted them with the question of why attempts at communism begin with blood baths and end in labor camps.

I know you did ask, but it was always surrounded by so much other stuff that it allowed your opponents to attack another part of your argument rather than directly address that most difficult question.

That's one reason Araybro is such an effective internet warrior, he keeps it short and sweet and never lets opponent run away from him.[/QUOTE]

I don't want to sit here and argue methodology but I feel that showing the convoluted logic leaps they have to go through to reach a point where fucking Mao isn't really communist, even though he's the most prolific communist author in history who led the most populated communist nation in history is actually most certainly exposing the weakness of their ideology.

I think this argument has gone very well for me from the start. Mikhail got so butthurt he put me on ignore and ran away from the Rickshaw, Dumar is stuck on stupid contradicting himself on the one hand telling us that we can't trust anyone who calls themselves communists to say what they actually mean to arguing only his communist sources can be trusted, while trying to write off 150 million corpses plus as really the result of capitalism.
 
khalid

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Dumar_sl said:
That's true of any complex topic. Do you wanna even touch the subject of the disagreements under capitalism?
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The difference is, capitalism has led to successes. You cannot point to a single successful communist society. So its just a "bit" more on the fringes. It is kinda like how you would expect to find many posters disagreeing on football teams, but you might be surprised to find the only two posters on the forum that believe in little green men to disagree.

Anyway, just sawthison the politics forum. Think I am going to print and post it on my door at school.
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hodj

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If a regime, whether it labels itself communist, capitalist, or whatever -ist, institutes policy that forces labor of its people, that forces occupations upon them, that terrorizes and brutalizes if they protest that forced labor in labor camps, it is not communism according to Marx.
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Still ignoring how they get to the forced labor portion of the equation.

They literally can't look at it.

When they are forced to address the deaths caused by Communism, this happens:

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And their brains literally just shut off the region where their capacity to understand that events happen sequentially and that actions have consequences just dries up.
 
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Dumar_sl

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khalid_sl said:
The difference is, capitalism has led to successes.
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It depends on what you mean by 'successes'. If you look at one point in time, sitting here in 2013 on a computer made under capitalism, absolutely. If you look at all of the historical processes that had to occur to get to this point of my typing on this fancy computer, then it gets questionable. And what I mean is, capitalism is not aware of itself: it doesn't know its own preconditions that formulated it, nor does it look to the conditions that could lead to it ending as a socioeconomic system. It views itself in a myopic lens, of going from crisis to crisis, trying to fix each one as it gets there.

It doesn't look at the inevitable consequences of its own policy, and those consequences, once they arrive, are viewed as accidental. So as feudalism eventually gave way, the things it gave way to were seen as accidental, not seen as inevitable products of the system put in place itself.

So the next time a crisis in capitalism comes up (and it will), a look into Marx might tell you why.
 
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Dumar_sl

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And I should add, capitalism never really fixes its problems - it simply moves them around geographically. Capital takes a limit as a barrier to overcome, and once it's overcome it, a crisis ensues, and the crises are never truly 'fixed', but shifted around somewhere else.

This is basic Marx 101. And a point that Harvey talks about often in his lectures.
 
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