Military Thread

Big Phoenix_sl said:

Just because someone can run a 300PFT doesnt mean theyre better than someone who can only do a 250.

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It clearly means the 300 PFTer is faster than the 250. That's the difference between a 3 mile 18 minute and 3 mile 26:20 minutes. You can argue all you want about different types of strength, or how that 300 PFTer can't squat like you, but you're totally neglecting the amount of discipline and training it takes (and the character that reveals) to run an 18 minute 3 mile.

EDIT: I never ran a 300, but making it sound like that gap in performance for a major fitness test is negligible is just ridiculous.

It goes far beyond PT the guy with 798 points gets the promotion , the guys with 760 to 797 points get rcp ets. 120 days later the promotion points drop to 550 cause the army booted people they should not have. Do they call back the 42 people who scored 760 + promotion points ? Nope, they promote the spongebob camopants , and patrick star mos px ranger colostomy bags , who are getting promoted solely because they got shit lucky on their enlistment dates.
note this is under the current rcp and promotion point systems to be as realistic as possible

Chesire_sl said:

It goes far beyond PT the guy with 798 points gets the promotion , the guys with 760 to 797 points get rcp ets. 120 days later the promotion points drop to 550 cause the army booted people they should not have. Do they call back the 42 people who scored 760 + promotion points ? Nope, they promote the spongebob camopants , and patrick star mos px ranger colostomy bags , who are getting promoted solely because they got shit lucky on their enlistment dates.
note this is under the current rcp and promotion point systems to be as realistic as possible

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I don't know enough about all the branches convoluted methods for promotion/retention. In my 5 years active, I saw a shit ton of average/mediocre/garbage people rant and rave about how unfair something is; they were being treated like average and replaceable people and it really bothered them. They either didn't understand the system, or didn't want to put the effort into competing. I think they felt that retiring @ 20 is an entitlement, not a privilege.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

OR they ran an 18 minute but they had an arm injury in combat and can't do 20 pullups ..... there are tons of reasons some people don't get 300 and they aren't all that the other person is more disciplined. I knew kids that hadn't run at all before bootcamp that were just magically gods at running a 3 mile.

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I thought that the military carries over your pre-injury score and you run a partial. I don't doubt that there are some people who run 250 PFTs who should be retained; they typically are. I also think that putting up serious run times gets progressively harder as you age; sure, kids fresh into boot camp with low body fat percentage are fast runners... but I watched a lot of guys pick up some rank, drink more beer, and get slower as they aged. Meanwhile, the 35 year old Major is running a 19:30 because he still gives a shit about being competitive.

I'm just commenting on my own anecdotal evidence (5 years USMC, 0231) -- MOST of the guys I worked with who were above average wanted to get out. They knew that they'd have better opportunities on the outside and wanted to get their schooling knocked out fast. The guys who sucked at their job and didn't know how to put their fork down, well, they knew they'd get crushed in the real world and wanted to stay in; its crystal clear in the USMC that physical fitness is held on a pedestal... you can either rant/rave about the system or just learn how to beat it (i.e., get strong, fast, and learn how to spout all the leadership buzzwords that your superiors want you to know).

The retention boards are far from perfect, especially with the rate at which they implemented the cuts. However I know commands that do everything in their power to find loop holes to retain worthwhile personnel that aren't ready to go make more money/go to school. Then you still have branch transfers and the reserves as a backup for most.

Some of the best Soldiers I've worked with are former Marines that couldn't make promotion. I'd take more of that.

Big Phoenix_sl said:

I saw plenty of guys who could run fast but when it came to picking up a pack and going for a hump, they did terrible. They should never use one metric as the holly grail and end all be all of what makes someone good. Yeah you pay run a 300 on your pft but you could be shitty at your job. Difference is being shitty at your job isnt as obvious to HQMC as your pft score.

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People have all types of excuses man -- but how many are actually training hard to improve? I'd wager most of those guys are just bitching or saying shit like ("I'm just not a good runner"). Yes, its true that HQMC places a very large emphasis on the PFT... some people look at that as a challenge, others find excuses for why HQMC is unfair.

You're losing focus. It's not about the metric. It's about your focus and effort on performing the metric. The assumption is if you're willing to bust ass for a 300, you'll equally bust ass to round out your inability to carry 60+ lbs on your back for 8+miles.

They can't gauge everyone fairly on multiple metrics that translates to deployment atmosphere because of finances, time, and safety. Why do you think the Army is still failing to fully implement its new PFT/CFT across the board? Thus KISS.

Anyway...

From the Air Force side of things, I have no idea what you fuckers are talking about.

Aim High!

The new army retention control point system is going to gurantee , that the bulk of the force never makes it to E 5.
The days of the career specialist are going away .

As a pre-9/11 tanker, I laughed at all my guys who took PT seriously. It was like, whatever, run as fast as you goddamn want, the only place I am running to is...uh...wait, I'm on a fucking tank, I drive past people who are running and laugh at them.

Chesire_sl said:

The new army retention control point system is going to gurantee , that the bulk of the force never makes it to E 5.
The days of the career specialist are going away .

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The days of the career E4 ended in the 90s. I remember seeing E4s with 10+ years in service in the mid 90s. When they moved the retention back from 12 to 8 years for E4s, it killed it. Who the fuck would want to be an E4 for that long anyways? Shit I was an E3 longer than I was an E4 (thanks to the great promotion waiver freeze of 96-97). I never planned on staying in past my first enlistment. Yet, here my dumbass sits in Afghanistan on my 3rd 12+ month tour in Afghanistan 19 years later.

Pollo_sl said:

The days of the career E4 ended in the 90s. I remember seeing E4s with 10+ years in service in the mid 90s. When they moved the retention back from 12 to 8 years for E4s, it killed it. Who the fuck would want to be an E4 for that long anyways? Shit I was an E3 longer than I was an E4 (thanks to the great promotion waiver freeze of 96-97). I never planned on staying in past my first enlistment. Yet, here my dumbass sits in Afghanistan on my 3rd 12+ month tour in Afghanistan 19 years later.

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It is not about who wants it , more about promotion points being high . Through multiple deployments it is pretty hard to get a four year degree let alone any army schools . Sure you can be PT superstar and shoot like ed topperwine plus have a rack that drags on the ground. However that means fuck all when you don't get 80 points for WLC and 75 points worth of college credits and whatever miltary education tops out at these days.
career specialist was more tongue in cheek than anything . A security clearance is own reward when one gets out plenty of decent jobs out there simply by dint of having one.

Kids need some perspective. Oblig TL association.