Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Mur

Molten Core Raider
521
876
7d 18h 45m
My rough thoughts on melee are. Melee classes should not have an auto attack. No class should. Spell casters have to click a button to make an attack so should melee classes. If you want to swing your sword, kick, punch, bash, whatever okay, click a hot key just like a magic user has to do. There should be a rock, paper, scissor game for melee, as there is with magic users and magic resistance. Melee attacks become more effective, more damage, more threat, for hitting the exposed hotspot area, like how it works in a real-life fight. Roughly, if the mob turns red you use an upper attack, if it turns blue you use a lower attack, something along those lines, these events are random so someone just can't just macro a tank box and not have to pay attention to it. It doesn't have to be super fancy, complicated, flashy, just basic. I know something like this pisses off the "watch the game auto play while we chat in a graphical chat room with dragons ", Can't please everyone.
Something along the lines of how gathering works in rust, there are hotspots you need to hit for maximum effectiveness.
Also hitting a mob's hotspot could also increase, hit, stun, stagger, and crit chance for melee.
A system like this could also be used to make pure melee class more effective and less boring to solo with, when you are waiting for a group or your friends to log on to play with. So, that the warrior, or other pure melee, does not just get benched when you are without a group.

That sounds like absolute shit.
 

ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
That sounds like absolute shit.
Can you explain why, or are you just triggered for no reason?

I'd also like to point out that I believe melee combat should be on the slower side, where melee swings are not just auto spammed a mile a minute for dps. and this goes for melee skills also, Melee attacks should be meaningful and melee DPS shouldn't be base off of auto attack or spamming an attack button.
 

zzeris

Vermin Supreme
<Gold Donor>
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Can you explain why, or are you just triggered for no reason?

I'd also like to point out that I believe melee combat should be on the slower side, where melee swings are not just auto spammed a mile a minute for dps. and this goes for melee skills also, Melee attacks should be meaningful and melee DPS shouldn't be base off of auto attack or spamming an attack button.

I think that's a lot of work that an indie developer wouldn't want to take on. Your system has merit in a vacuum, but I think reality would work differently. Aiming for hotspots for a melee class seems harder than cast a spell and let the game's algorithm decide on how much damage occurs. Unless the mage has to aim as well? Do they get spells that affect the lower body and then ones that affect the upper body as well?

Your system seems similar to the WoW 1-2-3, 1-2-4, repeat type of effort. Sure, they have to look at the ques like Dragon's Lair in the 80s but is that really harder or more enjoyable? It would suck to make that system and then find out people really don't want to play whack a mole in video game form.
 

forehead

Molten Core Raider
123
212
5d 16h 25m
My rough thoughts on melee are. Melee classes should not have an auto attack. No class should. Spell casters have to click a button to make an attack so should melee classes. If you want to swing your sword, kick, punch, bash, whatever okay, click a hot key just like a magic user has to do. There should be a rock, paper, scissor game for melee, as there is with magic users and magic resistance. Melee attacks become more effective, more damage, more threat, for hitting the exposed hotspot area, like how it works in a real-life fight. Roughly, if the mob turns red you use an upper attack, if it turns blue you use a lower attack, something along those lines, these events are random so someone just can't just macro a tank box and not have to pay attention to it. It doesn't have to be super fancy, complicated, flashy, just basic. I know something like this pisses off the "watch the game auto play while we chat in a graphical chat room with dragons ", Can't please everyone.
Something along the lines of how gathering works in rust, there are hotspots you need to hit for maximum effectiveness.
Also hitting a mob's hotspot could also increase, hit, stun, stagger, and crit chance for melee.
A system like this could also be used to make pure melee class more effective and less boring to solo with, when you are waiting for a group or your friends to log on to play with. So, that the warrior, or other pure melee, does not just get benched when you are without a group.
Well, MNM is definitely not going to be this

Seems like you are the person that won’t be pleased
 

ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
Unless the mage has to aim as well? Do they get spells that affect the lower body and then ones that affect the upper body as well?
It's not aiming, fps style. It's more along the lines targeting a random weak spot with a specific melee attack, skill, or move, much like a Magic user does by picking the right spell vs a mob magic resistance. Combat is still locked targeting, like you have in EQ, for instance, a mob would be broken down into upper, middle, lower. You, the melee, notice a shine, or whatever, on the upper part of the mob, you push the upper attack skill, now the shine is at the lower section, you push the lower attack skill. This doesn't have to happen in rapid succession, like a twitchy spam fest. Meaningful attack with meaningful damage, much like how a spell works but with no cast time with long cool downs. You have multi upper, middle, and lower attacks and you'd use them at the right timing, to maximize damage and what not.

I never understood the spam fast that was auto attacking in EQ. a bunch of number just rolling across the chat box a mile a minute. I guess you are right, and making melee combats more along the line of spell casting and selecting the right melee moves depending on the situation might be more completed than I know.
 
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Mur

Molten Core Raider
521
876
7d 18h 45m
Can you explain why, or are you just triggered for no reason?

I'd also like to point out that I believe melee combat should be on the slower side, where melee swings are not just auto spammed a mile a minute for dps. and this goes for melee skills also, Melee attacks should be meaningful and melee DPS shouldn't be base off of auto attack or spamming an attack button.

Your system is exactly what we need to move away from. Oh a red flashing area, and a blue flashing area. Oh a red X to hit...we don't need to have whack a mole for combat. While I agree afk auto attacking is lame, the thought to chasing a big red X around the body of a dragon is seizure inducing. Now multiply that by 20+ for everyone else in the raid. Raid leader would sound like he's directing some weird square dance. "And do-see-do your partner..."

You suggestion belongs in a single player game, or maybe a PvP duel game, not an old school throw back MMORPG. Which if you've been paying attention is what the devs are going for.

edit: There is nothing wrong with melee having situational skills, I am all for them. Like I said in an earlier post, Auto attack, bash/slam, kick, taunt, and a couple more situational skills. They could be swapped out like casters, but like casters limit them to a few on the hot bar.
 

ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
chasing a big red X around the body
You wouldn't be chasing anything around. Youd just choose a skill that hit that part of the body, instead of just spamming all your attack skills willy nilly and auto attacking. The rust video I referenced is just to show the possibility of what the week spot could look like. I'm still talking about EQ style of target lock combat. If I haven't made that clear.
 

Lunis

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,982
1,161
45d 4m
What you're describing isn't rpg combat, it's survival or some attempt at realism which already exists in some games. It's completely uninteresting for an mmo where all you're doing is focusing on the shiny or 'exposed' part of the mob just like Rust's harvesting system. That would get old extremely quickly.

Vanguard had the best combat system. Defensive target, mechanics tied to your off/def target, combos that proc'd off crits, lots of abilities off of the gcd, & few restrictions on macros so you didn't need a ton of hotkeys. You could even swap gear mid combat, I remember seeing the good Blood Mage players having gear swap macros on every spell cast. It looked hilarious but they did insane dps/healing.
 

ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
What you're describing isn't rpg combat
It most certainly is. How is auto attacking, with button mashing, spamming skill buttons more RPG than what I'm talking about? What I'm talking about is classic RPG. With 100% more engaging combat for melee and more rewarding. The only real changes with my combat system, from EQ, is that you have to pay attention while being a melee and that you do meaningful damage with your swings, instead of a spam fest. You can also include auto attacking with my idea of, focused targeted meaningful attacks, if you really wanted. Auto attacks are not inherently RPG in any sense. In most RPGS you chose an attack to perform.
 
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Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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1,307
EQ's strength is that you didn't have to do much. A bodypart system is counterintuitive to that. It sounds like systems bloat that an engineer/designer combo will tear apart years after your product is done because players hate it.

It sounds to me like SOEmote - an idea someone with ideas had that wanted to see their idea become reality, but it was pushed on players because a designer thought it was a cool idea, but in actual practicality, no one wanted it and its actual usage became a burden on its players.

Second Life / VRChat were better uses of SOEmote-style tech. Much like Rust is a better game for targeted bodyparts.

Just because a game is niche doesn't mean it has to try wacky systems. Often times, its niche will reject wacky ideas if they don't flow into existing gameplay.

Imagine if FFXI, EQ or WoW players were told that their entire live game would have targetable bodyparts in combat for all content suddenly, and you had to select them to do maximum DPS. Their playerbase would riot, because none of them wanted it, and many are likely already struggling with DPS rotations. It's an idea that sounds good on paper, but not in practicality. It takes people playing telling a designer sometimes to convince a designer otherwise. Sometimes bad ideas get to the conception stage and worse, in production.

The benefit of having a niche game and small studio like this is asininely crazy ideas can be tested, but are not required to be put in.
 
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ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
The benefit of having a niche game and small studio like this is asininely crazy ideas can be tested, but are not required to be put in.
Exactly.

The more I think about it the more streamlined it becomes. As I said my thoughts on this are rough and they need refining. Instead of having three sets of attacks for upper, mid, and lower, too much bloat, pure melee characters would get a targeted stance button. This button let's your character use attacks on one of the three areas of the body. The targeting system would not be body part (hand, feet, Eyes) per say, it would be just three areas of the body, upper, middle, lower. Also, the UI could indicate want area of the body is weak to attacks. Example, the UI says upper is weakened, so you would just switch your attack stance to upper, great, you are now greatly more effective in everything you do, later the UI indicates the lower is weak, so you switch you attack stance to lower, which all would be random.

This is manly just for pure melee, but I can also see it working for spell casters.
 
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forehead

Molten Core Raider
123
212
5d 16h 25m
Modern MMO warrior gameplay
660DE466-126E-43F1-AB6F-7E064F9DD539.jpeg
 

ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
I can't remember if Asheron's Call had an auto attack for melee, I don't believe it did, but I do remember you had to select high, med, low, before attacking. It seems that my idea isn't too far off of what has been already done in the 90s mmo. I don't remember anyone complaining about having to select an attack height in Asheron's Call, but it's been a very long time. Still think it could work every well today.
 
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Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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I can't remember if Asheron's Call had an auto attack for melee, I don't believe it did, but I do remember you had to select high, med, low, before attacking. It seems that my idea isn't too far off of what has been already done in the 90s mmo. I don't remember anyone complaining about having to select an attack height in Asheron's Call, but it's been a very long time. Still think it could work every well today.
Asheron's Call and a few other 90's MMOs did have something similar. Hints of that are left over in modern MMO design when you're trying to hit the dragon's tail to weaken it, or specific attacks work better behind on mob types, etc.

I don't think it's a terrible idea depending on the game, but I also don't think it would be well received in an EQ spiritual successor which has preconceived notions of how combat should work.

In something like Rust, 7 Days to Die, DayZ or any action targetless MMO like TERA? A survival simulator like Fallen Earth or Fallout 76? Probably very well received. In M&M? Maybe not.

It's best to know your audience. EQ players are mostly lazy but will invest time into their character to make up for that laziness factor. EQ was more of a glorified chatroom with gameplay elements to encourage socialization at its core - it was the natural transition to a 3D world from MUDs and offline D&D campaigns. Some of those features translate great (DikuMUD -> EQ) but not all.
 
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TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Under the hood dice rolls as auto-attack is fine. With a few abilities like kick, bash, whatever to do something here and there.

Secrets has it right. The strength of EQ is that your main goal is to be present and not having to dance dance revolution the entire time means you should be engaging with the people you are playing with. Rather than with the game interface mashing buttons. Spells being more strategic in nature is also part of the genre.
 
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ili

Trakanon Raider
495
170
18d 7h 24m
your main goal is to be present
I highly doubt anyone of us who bought EQ 20+ years ago thought to themselves " I'm going to play this game just be present " Wake up dude. This came years later, after boredom with the game. Most of us who bought EQ 20 years ago, bought it because of the adventure it promised and stayed for the friends we made, and most of us we moved onto different games. this is not 1999, you don't have to be bored to death while adventuring with your friends and family. Brad knew this, why do you think he never made an EQ clone, he could have easily, but he didn't. why? You can have and engaging game, while having a good time with friends, family, community.
 
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forehead

Molten Core Raider
123
212
5d 16h 25m
I highly doubt anyone of us who bought EQ 20+ years ago thought to themselves " I'm going to play this game just be present " Wake up dude. This came years later, after boredom. Most of us who bought EQ 20 years ago, bought it because of the adventure it promised and stayed for the friends we made. this is not 1999, you don't have to be bored to death while adventuring with your friends and family. You can have and engaging game, while having a good time with friends, family, community.
We’re not bored to death playing EQ. We have a movie going on the second monitor.

I don’t know why you chose the MNM thread to go on a tangent about your desires for action packed high apm combat. Watch a single stream and realize they won’t have that. This isn’t the game you’re looking for. It is for a niche audience that you are no longer a part of. I like games where I can play and eat a sandwich at the same time. I think MNM might be more my speed.
 
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