Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO
- Thread starter Flobee
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why the hell do "old school" mmos think that they need a billion fucking classes. never understood that mentality? it has no basis in D&D, maybe muds? it's like they went through all the "complete book of bards" for each class and decided each subkit should be it's own class or something. its a fucking detriment to your game not a selling point. 3 expansions later you are left with 3 different rangers each with different color arrows for flavor to differentiate them. non-stop crying about balance, nerfs, etc. Yes balance in PVE, especially in PVE, did you even play EQ?
its a nightmare and shit is garbage.
So looking at this class list, we got...
basic EQ classes stolen from D&D:
Cleric
Druid (really just a nature cleric)
Warrior
Monk
Wizard
Rogue
with their hybrids:
Paladin (Cleric/warrior hybrid)
Ranger (druid/warrior hybrid)
Bard (wizard/rogue hybrid)
plus some basic EQ equivalent classes which are really just reskinned/specialized versions of the above D&D classes:
Mage (wizard with pets)
Enchanter (wizard with CC)
Necromancer (wizard with undead)
Shaman (druid with buffs/debuffs)
with their hybrids:
Shadow Knight (Necromancer/Warrior hybrid)
Beast Lord (Monk/shaman hybrid)
Then on top of that they added the following:
Archer (Bow using Warrior?)
Inquisitor (enchanter/warrior hybrid)
Spellblade (Wizard/warrior hybrid)
and before you ackshualllllllly me about bards yes they are closer to enchanter/rogue hybrids, enchanter is literally just a subset of wizard, one of the schools of magic in D&D. Same as necromancer. They were all just fucking wizards who chose a speciality back in the day.
edit: yes at its core everything is just a variant of the fighter/mage/thief/cleric archetypes. doesn't mean you have to take every possible permutation and turn it into it's own fucking class. 8-10 classes is fine, let them differentiate via talents or other sub-kit specialty/flavor mechanism.
its a nightmare and shit is garbage.
So looking at this class list, we got...
basic EQ classes stolen from D&D:
Cleric
Druid (really just a nature cleric)
Warrior
Monk
Wizard
Rogue
with their hybrids:
Paladin (Cleric/warrior hybrid)
Ranger (druid/warrior hybrid)
Bard (wizard/rogue hybrid)
plus some basic EQ equivalent classes which are really just reskinned/specialized versions of the above D&D classes:
Mage (wizard with pets)
Enchanter (wizard with CC)
Necromancer (wizard with undead)
Shaman (druid with buffs/debuffs)
with their hybrids:
Shadow Knight (Necromancer/Warrior hybrid)
Beast Lord (Monk/shaman hybrid)
Then on top of that they added the following:
Archer (Bow using Warrior?)
Inquisitor (enchanter/warrior hybrid)
Spellblade (Wizard/warrior hybrid)
and before you ackshualllllllly me about bards yes they are closer to enchanter/rogue hybrids, enchanter is literally just a subset of wizard, one of the schools of magic in D&D. Same as necromancer. They were all just fucking wizards who chose a speciality back in the day.
edit: yes at its core everything is just a variant of the fighter/mage/thief/cleric archetypes. doesn't mean you have to take every possible permutation and turn it into it's own fucking class. 8-10 classes is fine, let them differentiate via talents or other sub-kit specialty/flavor mechanism.
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Kriptini
Vyemm Raider
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Talents are a much larger balance issue than just having more classes because classes are discrete arsenals of abilities and stats while talents allow you to create multitudes of permutations of abilities (and sometimes stats). It is bizarre to me that you would argue that more classes are harder to balance than talents. (Just look at the history of RIFT.)
Plus, even if many of these classes end up being very functionally similar, it's still nice to be able to create more unique characters in roleplaying games. EQ2 had 24 classes but the functionally distinct number was closer to 12, but there was still enough variation between the ones that were functionally similar to create unique senses of identity and make it fun to roll alts of those other classes.
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Eq2 perfectly encapsulates everything wrong with having too many classes. Half of them are redundant. Im almost embarrassed for you for bringing it up. Also talents or whatever specialization mechanism inside a game is far simpler to balance than an entirely new class line. You can modify/change specs eithout forcing players to fucking reroll from level 1, lol.
Games like swtor had this same "duplication" but really just good guy vs bad guy versions and they were functionally identical so you really only had 8 distinct classes with different, wow like mechanics that separated them. Unlike eq2 which did have a bit of "bad guy vs good guy" classes but really it was just trash all around with different colored spell effects and absolutely no reason to ever roll a different version, unlike swtor which at least had a unique story to experience.
Im struggling to think of a game with more than 8-10 good/useful classes.
Games like swtor had this same "duplication" but really just good guy vs bad guy versions and they were functionally identical so you really only had 8 distinct classes with different, wow like mechanics that separated them. Unlike eq2 which did have a bit of "bad guy vs good guy" classes but really it was just trash all around with different colored spell effects and absolutely no reason to ever roll a different version, unlike swtor which at least had a unique story to experience.
Im struggling to think of a game with more than 8-10 good/useful classes.
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Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
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If they can design the classes to have different play styles, along with strengths and weaknesses, then the more the better. If they're just cookie cutters of each other but with different animations, then it's stupid and pointless.
Rift is a good example of this. It was awesome when they each had their own identity, then they got lazy and didn't want to bother balancing so everyone was equal at everything and it went to shit
Rift is a good example of this. It was awesome when they each had their own identity, then they got lazy and didn't want to bother balancing so everyone was equal at everything and it went to shit
Hatorade
A nice asshole.
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Why not ogre monk? Human monk: move fast, flows, martial artist. Ogre: punch hard.
Reminds me of an intimidation based half orc thief in DnD. BIG difference between you don't see me(with your eyes) and You!(points) don't fucking see me!
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EverQuest launched with 14 classes in 1999. I don’t think there’s a reason to whine about a couple extra in it’s spiritual successor.
Kriptini
Vyemm Raider
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In what delusion are you living where people rerolled entire classes in games due to balance changes that weren't just people overreacting?
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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You're right... so completely agree. However, one thing I did like that EQ2 did, that I think I am in the great minority of, I liked the sub-classes and the suburbs for the races. I thought it was immersive and fun part of the noobie experience too. It was very organic how the characters started in small towns, attached to small dungeon, and prevented you from being completely overwhelmed with large scale ares where quests are widespread. As you leveled and explored, you became more familiar with the environment, travel, etc and you also grew in your housing options which also made more sense.
I think EQ2 could have easily eliminated 2-4 classes but I did like what they did earlier with the character/class development and I hate that it was completely eliminated. I thought that what EQ2 did with their zones and housing was very good. Its just unfortunately so many other things were bad.
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Kithani
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Which 2-4 classes could EQ have eliminated?
IMO I think only one would be combining Wizard and Magician somehow
Siliconemelons
Avatar of War Slayer
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EQ2 did a ton of things right, but because its attachment rate was soo low, what it did wrong (and it did) was very detrimental to its success while it was fighting up hill against WOW.
For those that did do the EQ2 thing, did they ever finish the lore, quests etc. of Freeport- Lucan vs Quenos- Marr? To me playing in freeport it was kind of a Seru type thing where it seemed as if there was a big long quest to get up to meeting Lucan etc.
The classes starting as base classes then branching out was good, but should not have been /fully/ alignment locked. Pal/SK and Necro/Cleric obviously but many were duplicates simply to do the alignment.
Edit: No one seems to mention the classic EQ2 voice acting for neigh everything, it was quite well done imo.
For those that did do the EQ2 thing, did they ever finish the lore, quests etc. of Freeport- Lucan vs Quenos- Marr? To me playing in freeport it was kind of a Seru type thing where it seemed as if there was a big long quest to get up to meeting Lucan etc.
The classes starting as base classes then branching out was good, but should not have been /fully/ alignment locked. Pal/SK and Necro/Cleric obviously but many were duplicates simply to do the alignment.
Edit: No one seems to mention the classic EQ2 voice acting for neigh everything, it was quite well done imo.
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Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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Edit: EQ2 (Sorry)
I would have probably reworked and somehow consolidated the following..
Enchanter (Coercer / Illusionist) & Summoners (Conjurer / Necromancer)
and
Bard (Dirge / Troubador) & Predator (Assassin / Ranger) & Rogue (Brigand / Swashbuckler)
You can also throw Shaper and Animalist in there somewhere as well.
I think there was some unnecessary duplication in all of that.
Suggestions:
- Rogue = Bard / Ranger / Assassin
- Summoner = Enchanter / Conjurer / Necromancer
- Sorcerer = Wizard and Channeler
- Shamaner = Mystic and Beastlord
Siliconemelons
Avatar of War Slayer
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Right, because EQ2 good / evil alignment locked the specializations they were inherently doubled - so there is a lot in EQ2 as an example to consolidate, as most differences where names of skills and a few (very few) specialties. Didn't they combine many in current EQ2?
Also, the heritage quests were cool... I liked them.
Also, the heritage quests were cool... I liked them.