Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kriptini

Vyemm Raider
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3,647
What do you mean T&L didn't have effective ways to group? Leveling 1-50 was done 100% through soloing. (There were group dungeons below level cap but they were 100% a waste of time because soloing was so much more efficient and you were required to do the story quests to unlock things.) Both party board and matchmaking queue were in the game at launch (although matchmaking queue was bugged and didn't actually work for a significant period of the early access period).
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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8,394
What do you mean T&L didn't have effective ways to group? Leveling 1-50 was done 100% through soloing. (There were group dungeons below level cap but they were 100% a waste of time because soloing was so much more efficient and you were required to do the story quests to unlock things.) Both party board and matchmaking queue were in the game at launch (although matchmaking queue was bugged and didn't actually work for a significant period of the early access period).

The game is enormously focused on large scale group pvp and pve content, and you identified yourself the issues with the tools.

Solo content was thin, and solo progression was not rewarding.

In contrast to other populated MMOs (WoW, GW2) group content in T&L is far more emphasized in relation to solo content.
 

Kriptini

Vyemm Raider
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The game is enormously focused on large scale group pvp and pve content, and you identified yourself the issues with the tools.

Solo content was thin, and solo progression was not rewarding.

In contrast to other populated MMOs (WoW, GW2) group content in T&L is far more emphasized in relation to solo content.

Yes, group content is emphasized in T&L, but that's not why the game failed. It failed because of bugs! If the matchmaking was working, I would've just said "you're wrong" in response to you saying there was no effective way to group. If it weren't for the gorillian bugs, the game's population would not have crashed. Yes, we would've lost the solo players, but frankly, the game didn't need them - even two months into the game when several guilds had quit due to frustration with the game's stability, the population was still extremely active and there was never a dull moment in any of the open world content.

Also, "the game is enormously focused on large scale PvE content" is not true in the sense that you had to "group" for it. All of the "large scale PvE" was possible to participate in as a solo player by just running up to a boss with the rest of the zerg and smacking it for your loot. The game didn't introduce large scale PvE content where grouping and coordination really mattered until about two months ago, when the first 12-man PvE raid was released. But guess what went wrong with that? BUGS! On launch day, the raid automatically kicked out anyone who tried to enter it. There was a hotfix the next night, but the first boss had a bug where he couldn't be killed unless you used an exploit. It took A WEEK for the devs to fix it, and then in that same patch, they gave out 3-7 day temp bans for anyone who exploited the unkillable boss. I'm sorry Quaid, but when it comes to T&L, claiming that anything other than bugs killed that game is an ignorant position. I should know.

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As for New World, I don't have any experience with it so I'll just have to take your word for it.
 
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Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
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Can confirm with Kriptini Kriptini that bugs/stability issues killed T&L for me. I was in the same alliance he was at one point. Our guild got blown up because of our retarded leader, which certainly didn't help, but when that situation was contrasted with all the stability issues? It made it easy to just quit entirely.
 
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Sloan

Silver Knight of the Realm
143
126
In terms of M&M, what is the argument being put forth about single vs group experience exactly? I almost exclusively solo in M&M. And I dont mean I box, I just solo not a huge fan of boxing. I would say most the people I play with group the majority of the time, however there are a big chunk like me that just like soloing or duoing.

I think its important that not every class can solo. Right now for the most part the classes that arent very good at soloing bring more to groups as well. Fighters for example are monsters, easily doing double the dps as my necro and not having to worry about mana - not very good at soloing though.
 
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Kirun

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In terms of M&M, what is the argument being put forth about single vs group experience exactly? I almost exclusively solo in M&M. And I dont mean I box, I just solo not a huge fan of boxing. I would say most the people I play with group the majority of the time, however there are a big chunk like me that just like soloing or duoing.

I think its important that not every class can solo. Right now for the most part the classes that arent very good at soloing bring more to groups as well. Fighters for example are monsters, easily doing double the dps as my necro and not having to worry about mana - not very good at soloing though.
I think the distinction you’re making that "not every class should be able to solo" is often used as a stand-in for difficulty, but it's worth asking what kind of difficulty that actually represents.

If certain classes simply can't solo, not because the content is tough or situational, but because they lack the tools to survive or progress at all - that's not difficulty in the meaningful sense. That's just exclusion. It doesn't test player skill, decision-making, or adaptability. It just narrows viable playstyles based on class selection, and often ends up funneling players into suboptimal experiences unless they have the luxury of always being in a group.

And sure, in theory, the classes that can't solo well are supposed to bring more to groups. That sounds fair on paper. But in practice, it often creates dead spots in a player's experience: times when they want to log on, engage, progress, and there’s nothing they can do unless someone else is online. That doesn’t encourage grouping, it just discourages logging in. Not to mention how horrible most devs are at class balancing, where a class that's supposed to bring more to a group actually doesn't, but also can't solo either.

This is why I keep coming back to intentional incentive design as a better solution. You don't need to prevent soloing to encourage grouping. You need to make grouping feel better. More rewarding. More efficient. More fun. If someone solos, that should be viable - just slower, maybe riskier. Not broken by default. Not a punishment for rolling the "wrong" class.

MMORPGs work best when players can express autonomy and feel pulled toward interdependence. That doesn't happen when some classes are effectively turned off outside of a group. It happens when the game gives everyone a reason to cooperate - not because they have to, but because it's the better path forward.
 
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Kriptini

Vyemm Raider
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I think it's fine if all classes gain access to abilities that give them a better time soloing. Rogue, for example, can use their short-cooldown stun and incap to set up backstabs and ambushes when soloing. The time to kill mobs is actually fairly decent, but the killer is HP regen between fights. (Maybe there needs to be a consumable pot that increases HP regen when out of combat?) It's also much less efficient for XP than grouping, but if people want to play that way, I don't mind the playstyle being supported through niche abilities for all classes.
 

Nirgon

Log Wizard
17,430
27,624
Well there was an item

But all we did was sit around and grind crocs to pop then named for it for all our chars all day

So I guess they were like, this is a bad idea to have so early or via these means

It wasn't crazy regen but it was still good
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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8,394
Was thinking about the battle cleric discussion we had earlier, and I thought of a way it could be pretty sick.

Basically a 100% effective single target taunt, that once used, there’s no way you’re ripping agro off that Cleric again. Either the mob dies or the Cleric dies. Maybe it drops your channeling skill through the floor too. Kinda meant to be used as an ‘oh shit’ button and a high-risk last-ditch CC. Put it on a 10 or 15 minute cooldown. So you get to fulfill that Battle Cleric melee power fantasy thing every now and then, but you aren’t forced to melee all the time to achieve some ‘optimal’ benefit.
 
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Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Battle clerics are just pally that want to only use blunt and heal better. If anything it’s a skill tree of a pally, not a full its own thing. Or you end up with a WOW-esque Druid, oh I can best tank form, best dps form or best heal form haha lulz.
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
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3,388
Battle clerics are just pally that want to only use blunt and heal better. If anything it’s a skill tree of a pally, not a full its own thing. Or you end up with a WOW-esque Druid, oh I can best tank form, best dps form or best heal form haha lulz.
IMO this is a fundamental issue when a game has both cleric and paladin and IMO is why WoW went with priest instead. Cleric and Paladin are just too similar in concept and while it can work in a tabletop format, in a video game it just doesn't seem to make sense.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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IMO this is a fundamental issue when a game has both cleric and paladin and IMO is why WoW went with priest instead. Cleric and Paladin are just too similar in concept and while it can work in a tabletop format, in a video game it just doesn't seem to make sense.

I’m not keen on the battle cleric thing myself, but the team seems somewhat stoked about it. Wizards too for some reason, despite them adding a Wiz/Fighter hybrid class in Spellblade. *shrug*

Just trying to think of a way to make it not mandatory to melee as a Cleric unless you want to be berated by sweaty efficiency whores in xp groups.

If they want a melee healer they could just add Disciples from Vanguard imo. Great class.
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
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I’m not keen on the battle cleric thing myself, but the team seems somewhat stoked about it. Wizards too for some reason, despite them adding a Wiz/Fighter hybrid class in Spellblade. *shrug*

Just trying to think of a way to make it not mandatory to melee as a Cleric unless you want to be berated by sweaty efficiency whores in xp groups.

If they want a melee healer they could just add Disciples from Vanguard imo. Great class.
I love the idea of a battle cleric, but if you're going to have paladin too its just kind of hard to differentiate between them. Wizard and Spellblade seem fine but aren't they pushing some amount of melee for the Wizard? If so that would blur the lines a bit, but I'm not following their class design very closely so maybe thats not true. No argument on the Disciple/Blood Mage style healers, just need to support offensive and defensive targeting for it to make sense.

Overall it seems to me that trying to design net new classes in a already pretty well fleshed out EQ style trope will be difficult. I imagine making Ranger and Archer feel different enough to justify each existing will be hard but not un-doable. Aragorn vs Legolas to oversimplify it. I feel like video games as a format do make some of these classes harder because the skills that matter in this format are largely combat related and having stuff for, lets say a ranger, that is about nature lore, tracking, and communication with animals / plants or whatever just doesn't translate into most games. That stuff however is super useful in a tabletop format.

I'm glad they're shooting for all these classes even if they end up folding some of them together in the end.
 

Kriptini

Vyemm Raider
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I’m not keen on the battle cleric thing myself, but the team seems somewhat stoked about it. Wizards too for some reason, despite them adding a Wiz/Fighter hybrid class in Spellblade. *shrug*

Just trying to think of a way to make it not mandatory to melee as a Cleric unless you want to be berated by sweaty efficiency whores in xp groups.

If they want a melee healer they could just add Disciples from Vanguard imo. Great class.

On his latest stream, Nick said that he definitely doesn't want to make meleeing as a spellcaster too optimal because many people expect their gameplay to be sitting in between casting spells. That being said... autoattack damage is really good on every class right now, especially if you can use a 2-hander. I'm not sure what adjustments he's got cooked up but right now it does feel a little annoying if casters are sitting when they've still got half a mana bar instead of meleeing.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
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I'm not sure what adjustments he's got cooked up but right now it does feel a little annoying if casters are sitting when they've still got half a mana bar instead of meleeing.
Get used to it. The absolute dog shittiest of shitters played EQ and gravitated toward lazy fuck classes like Wizard, Mage, Necro, etc.

This game will be littered with boomer warm-bodies of the past.
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Get used to it. The absolute dog shittiest of shitters played EQ and gravitated toward lazy fuck classes like Wizard, Mage, Necro, etc.

This game will be littered with boomer warm-bodies of the past.

Had a tank call a mage right the fuck out in a Velketor high XP/hr AA group the other day. Told him to send a pet in for combat immediately or he’d be kicked. Guy was ninja afk every 3rd pull soaking xp.
 
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Animosity

Silver Baronet of the Realm
7,688
6,563
Get used to it. The absolute dog shittiest of shitters played EQ and gravitated toward lazy fuck classes like Wizard, Mage, Necro, etc.

This game will be littered with boomer warm-bodies of the past.
You must be in my Fangbreaker guild because this is grossly accurate.
 

Nirgon

Log Wizard
17,430
27,624
Was thinking about the battle cleric discussion we had earlier, and I thought of a way it could be pretty sick.

Basically a 100% effective single target taunt, that once used, there’s no way you’re ripping agro off that Cleric again. Either the mob dies or the Cleric dies. Maybe it drops your channeling skill through the floor too. Kinda meant to be used as an ‘oh shit’ button and a high-risk last-ditch CC. Put it on a 10 or 15 minute cooldown. So you get to fulfill that Battle Cleric melee power fantasy thing every now and then, but you aren’t forced to melee all the time to achieve some ‘optimal’ benefit.

That can be used to grief raid targets

and then a question of multiple clerics doing it

Positive criticism


Vanguard has so much good stuff to your other point and EQOA does too as I'm learning by finally playing it
 
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